Comprehensive Ivy League v. non-Ivy League Thread

College Search & Selection
381

<p>
[quote]
The point being made, from my perspective, is ask the reverse at the athletics's heavy schools, and see how many would opt to leave for the Ivies. You make a compelling and well reasoned argument.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I would submit that most of the students at Stanford and Duke would likely opt to stay vs. the non-HYP Ivies (though some may be more tempted at a chance to jump to HYP).</p>

<p>But students at NU, Rice, Vandy, Georgetown? Hmmm, again this is one of those hypothetical exercises that cannot be quantified, but if I had to bet, I'd say that a pretty decent number of students would opt to jump over if they had their choice at any Ivy school.</p>

382

<p>"Any Ivy school" is a pretty big stretch for NU. Can't speak for the others.</p>

383

<p>
[quote]
the fact remains these are 8 of the best universities in the US.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I had to read that twice to make sure I read it correctly. I believe the statement is that all eight of the Ivy League colleges are among the best universities in the United States, but possibly not in the top eight places. Right? I would agree with that. For specific students with specific major interests, there are definitely particular non-Ivy colleges that outrank one or more Ivy League colleges in academic excellence or just plain personal suitability.</p>

384

<p>
[quote]
There are merits to having sports be a significant part of campus culture, something you don't find at the Ivie's

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I take it that this statement comes from someone who hasn't attended an Ivy League college.</p>

385

<p>"But students at NU, Rice, Vandy, Georgetown? Hmmm, again this is one of those hypothetical exercises that cannot be quantified, but if I had to bet, I'd say that a pretty decent number of students would opt to jump over if they had their choice at any Ivy school."</p>

<p>Why do you say this? I have no skin in this, as I'm just reconnecting with the college admissions so that I can be informed for my 14 yr. old.</p>

<p>There are, I have head but not personally seen, well published statistics about the admission win % for duelly admitted students -- Harvard/Yale, Yale/Stanford, Yale/Princeton, etc. There is no need to speculate about matriculation preferences, the data are there.</p>

<p>As the poster above noted, it is mostly irrelevant because the issue is fit. Would you rather have a stick shift Ferrari or an automatic shift Camry? I submit if you are often in bumper to bumper traffic, the Camry is a much better fit, and choice.</p>

<p>Would you rather have a 100 point Parker rated white Burgundy (costs $1,200), or a 90 point Parker rated Mondavi cab ($24)? I happen to prefer red wine to white, so the choice for me is the Mondavi. The published Parker ratings are not applicable to me, they are not MY ratings.</p>

386

<p>
[quote]
I had to read that twice to make sure I read it correctly. I believe the statement is that all eight of the Ivy League colleges are among the best universities in the United States, but possibly not in the top eight places. Right? I would agree with that. For specific students with specific major interests, there are definitely particular non-Ivy colleges that outrank one or more Ivy League colleges in academic excellence or just plain personal suitability.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Yes 8 of the best. Not THE 8 best. There is a difference.</p>

387

<p>
[quote]

[quote]
There are merits to having sports be a significant part of campus culture, something you don't find at the Ivie's

[/quote]

I take it that this statement comes from someone who hasn't attended an Ivy League college.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Hearsay testimony may be inadmissible in court token_adult, but you'll forgive me if I take the word of my friends and family members- multiple to each ivy- who have expressed to me such situations.</p>

388

<p>No one, least of all me, is claiming that the Ivies, including the non-HYP Ivies, aren't excellent academic institutions. However, I am claiming (and have been for the nearly two years that I have been posting) that there are many schools around the country that meet their academic level while exceeding their prestige level within their home regions. If you think that Brown or U Penn or any of the non-HYP Ivies are more prestigious than Rice in the SW, then either you'rve never been there or you're just being resolutely stubborn (or maybe a bit of both). Similar analogies apply to the other colleges as well, but this is akin to arguing over how many angels sit on the head of a pin. I am certain that a student can get a great education at any of these colleges-once that need has been met, then the key question is which is the premier fit for that individual. </p>

<p>Re Rice, I think I acknowledged their relative athletic weakness way back in # 309. </p>

<p>"Probably the one college where my arguments leak a little is Rice. With just over 3000 undergrads, Rice really is in a difficult position to compete in major sports with the likes of U Texas and other southwestern powers. But they have made their mark in baseball (which is played by nearly 300 Division I colleges) and they are a fixture in the national rankings, including being preseason #6 in the USA for the 2008 season."</p>

<p>Having said that, which do you think a student would rather watch-a nationally ranked baseball team or a nationally ranked women's rowing team?? </p>

<p>Let's also review the facts in the major sports for some of these colleges that you belittle: </p>

<p>Football: Northwestern won 6 games and had only one truly uncompetitive game. Vanderbilt won 5 games and beat a team ranked # 6 in the country. Stanford tops 'em all with an electric win over then-# 1 USC. None of the Ivies played any football games of national consequence or against any ranked opponents. In addition, of the 80 football games that the Ivy colleges played, only 15 (19% of the games played) had more than 10,000 fans and only 3 (3.75% of the games) had more than 15,000 fans. </p>

<p>Basketball: Duke (13-0) and Georgetown (10-1) men are realistic Final Four contenders. Stanford (11-1) and Vanderbilt (13-0) are realistic contenders for the Pac 10 and SEC titles. (BTW, still didn't see any acknowledgment that these men's and the women's teams are among the highest achievers in this very competitive sport.) The best Ivy men's teams are # 145 Brown (record of 6-5) and # 180 Cornell (6-4). </p>

<p>Baseball: Rice and Vanderbilt are favorites to win their conferences and both have high preseason national rankings in Collegiate Baseball's 2008 rankings. 40 teams were ranked, 92 received votes. None of them are from the Ivy League. </p>

<p>As for the cross-admit data, there are myriad factors that influence student matriculation decisions. Prestige is one, but it varies from region to region. Sports are another and its importance varies from student to student. I think that students are probably pretty happy wherever they are and the freshman retention rates would support this thought.</p>

389

<p>
[quote]
Stanford tops 'em all with an electric win over then-# 1 USC.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>USC was ranked #2 at the time.</p>

390

<p>In recent years, I think about 15% of US Senators were Ivy undergrads and 25% received an undergrad OR grad/professional degree from an Ivy. I think the distribution among the Ivies is pretty even between HYP and the rest.</p>

<p>I don't think notable grads should make or break a schools rep, but it is interesting that they are about 50% Non-HYP. In the sciences and engineering, Cornell outshines the rest of the Ivies. I think Cornell and Columbia have the most Physics Nobel winners, for example.</p>

391

<p>
[quote]
or you're just being resolutely stubborn

[/quote]
</p>

<p>no more stubborn than you.</p>

<p>With regards to Rice, outside of that one sport, baseball -- which at the end of the day -- its not like they are perennial champs or anything -- the fact remains they have ONE single championship -- and that was over 15 years ago, what else does Rice offer in terms of sports to make it more prolific than the Ivies?</p>

<p>Again, take a look at the accomplishments of Princeton's men's lax team alone since 1993 (the year Rice won the baseball title). Princeton has won numerous national titles including a number of runner-ups, specifically, National Champs in '93, '96, '97, '98, '01 and runner-ups in '00 and '02:
NCAA</a> Men's Lacrosse Championships</p>

<p>In sum, Princeton's men's lax team has a total of 6 National Championships and 2 runner-up positions, making it the 3rd most prolific lax team in NCAA history (behind JHU and Syracuse). You are telling me that Rice's single baseball championship is better than that? Is it better than Brown's rowing team? Is it better than Cornell's ice hockey team? I don't think so. Rice's sports programs are < than the Ivies -- the Directors Cup numbers totally back me up on this -- and you will not convince me otherwise. </p>

<p>As far as ND, Vandy and G-Town, they are not equals to the Ivies in terms of academics. As far as I'm concerned, that's where the discussion with those schools begin and end in this debate.</p>

<p>Next, there is no need talking about Stanford or Duke. I have on a number of occasions acknowledged those schools. In other words, I'm not arguing against those schools, so why feel the need to bring them up?</p>

<p>Which leaves us: NU. I'm not sure when the last time NU won a national championship was -- perhaps someone who knows will post this -- but as I've already stated, the Ivies can claim a National Championship this year already. I'm willing to say that NU is a peer to the non-HYP Ivies on an academic and athletic level (but not HYP). </p>

<p>The other schools simply fall short on one end (academics) or another (athletics).</p>

392

<p>
[quote]
National Champs in '93, '96, '97, '98, '01 and runner-ups in '00 and '02

[/quote]
</p>

<p>^^^ should read '94 instead of '93 (typo)</p>

393

<p>Northwestern, as I noted earlier, has won the last two national championships in women's lacrosse. Women's lacrosse is about as much of a national accomplishment as women's rowing (about 85 colleges compete in each). For men's lacrosse, 56 colleges play Division I, nearly a third of which make the NCAA tournament. Congrats to Princeton, but if the other schools actually fielded teams, then this might be more to brag about. As I pointed out earlier, there are eight major conferences that don't even field a single men's team and there are only two teams in the Big Ten and four in the ACC. </p>

<p>If lacrosse ever catches on as a major sport (IMO, not likely), the pattern will be the same as it was for football. The color barrier will be broken decisively and the balance of power would shift decisively. Until then, make hay because if those other colleges ever decided to field teams, then the prominence of Ivy teams would disappear, just as it did in football. </p>

<p>And while Rice did not win the College World Series last year, I think a semi-final finish is worth a lot more respect than you are showing. Just out of curiosity, when was the last time that an Ivy team from any of the eight Ivy colleges ever got to the national semi-finals of a major sport where at least 150 colleges participated??</p>

<p>Re your comment,</p>

<p>"As far as ND, Vandy and G-Town, they are not equals to the Ivies in terms of academics. As far as I'm concerned, that's where the discussion with those schools begin and end in this debate."</p>

<p>you probably couldn't make a more telling comment of your narrow perspective if you tried. I think you need to get out around the country and talk to someone (students, alumni, employers, etc.) outside of Wall Street. These colleges (and several others) are easily accepted as academic peers to non-HYP Ivies.</p>

394

<p>NCAA</a> Rowing Championship - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia</p>

<p>*Brown Women's Rowing: *</p>

<p>National Champions:
2007 Brown
2004 Brown
2002 Brown
2000 Brown
1999 Brown</p>

395

<p>NU's women's lacrosse team has won the national title for the past 3 years (total record, 62-2).</p>

396

<p>
[quote]
you probably couldn't make a more telling comment of your narrow perspective if you tried.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Really? I guess that means anyone who quotes the USNWR rankings is a narrow minded person. I guess the students who choose the Ivies over ND, Vandy or G-Town are narrow minded.</p>

<p>As far as "getting around" -- I've worked on both coasts, I've lived and worked abroad in Europe and in Asia. I'll take my world experiences over yours any day of the week.</p>

397

<p>Both coasts-I thought so. LOL</p>

<p>It's a big country with a lot of good schools (that you probably flew over on your way from one coast to the other). It's so funny, it's almost a cariacature. </p>

<p>As for the comparison of our "world experiences," I think you're probably barking up the wrong tree, but really who cares and this is more "angels on the head of a pin" talk. I'm content to let my ideas stand on their own and let people decide for themselves about the quality of these schools.</p>

398

<p>
[quote]
I'm content to let my ideas stand on their own and let people decide for themselves about the quality of these schools.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, who said the quality of those schools weren't great? I sure didn't.</p>

<p>You see, this is perhaps the single biggest misperception when people debate me. This isn't about cutting those schools down -- they are all fine schools -- this is about defending what I believe to be unfair criticism of the Ivies, and in particular the non-HYP Ivies. I believe that all 8 schools are better than ND, Vandy and G-Town. I don't think I'm being incredibly narrow minded when I say so. I'm in good company as anyone who has chosen any one of the Ivies over those schools can attest. USNWR is also on my side (for what that is worth). WSJ Feeder School ranking is also on my side. So, don't try and paint me in a light where my thinking is totally radical or on the fringe. It is absolutely in line with the numbers and what I have seen and experienced.</p>

399

<p>if cross-admit data are any guide, the kids at Stanford wouldn't give up their spots for non-HYP ivies...but the kids at duke would</p>

400

<p>The</a> New York Times > Week in Review > Image > Collegiate Matchups: Predicting Student Choices </p>

<p>The raw data behind the chart is somewhat controversial, but anyway it's plain that come colleges fare better than others in cross-admit match-ups.</p>