Comprehensive Ivy League v. non-Ivy League Thread

College Search & Selection
41

<p>People in the deep south think Virginia is the north, so Maryland might as well be a border state... to Canada. But in minds of Marylanders, they are southern (at least somewhat). The fact is that Maryland had recruits fighting on both sides during the War of Northern Aggression. My own view is that the south starts at Fredericksburg, VA. DC and NoVA is definitely not southern. </p>

<p>As for the Southern Ivies, here is my line-up:
1. Duke,
2. Rice
3. Vanderbilt/Emory tie
5. University of Virginia
6. Davidson College
7. William & Mary
8. Washington & Lee
9. Tulane</p>

<p>I had forgotten about Rice in my original post (is Texas is the South or is that a whole 'nother category?) so Tulane slips to 9th (in an eight-team league :) ).</p>

42

<p>Dude, great list. Very southern. I always thought Tulane should be in there somewhere, for old time's sake if nothing else. </p>

<p>And I *love *grits :)</p>

43

<p>...I must be seeing things. Thought I saw Tulane on your list!</p>

<p>Hallucinating Tulane, that's a new one... </p>

<p>I still like your list anyway ;) Way to get 9 in the space of 8..</p>

44

<p>As a North Carolinian, dajada07's list has it right.</p>

45

<p>Haha... now you have 10 in the space 9...</p>

46

<p>So is WUStL not good enough or do you consider it not to be in the south?</p>

47

<p>WUSTL is certainly good enough, but doesn't have the "Old South" feeling I'm thinking of... hmm now I'm thinking Sewanee :)</p>

48

<p>Maybe we can merge Vandy & Emory to make it proper? </p>

<p>I mean, they merged Washington and Lee right?</p>

<p>And William & Mary too, right? Or did they not have issue.. ;)</p>

<p>
[quote]
As for the Southern Ivies, here is my line-up:
1. Duke
2. Rice
3. Vanderbilt/Emory tie
5. University of Virginia
6. Davidson College
7. William & Mary
8. Washington & Lee
9. Tulane

[/quote]
</p>

49

<p>UVA
UNC
Vandy
Emory
Duke
Wake
Rice
Davidson</p>

50

<p>Hey if you're going to include Texas I think UT-Austin deserves a mention.</p>

51

<p>guys we are talking about ivy schools..im sorry but i dont think any public school should be counted in there, most of them admit alot more applicants than ivy's with the exception of ucla and berkeley...but then you need to take in the test scores, admission philosopy (requires hs info), etc, and anyways they arent in the south... i still say the only schools that could be ivy's in the south are duke and then rice would be number 2</p>

52

<p>Does academic quality not matter at all? Every academic ranking source (i.e., that means not USNWR) places UT-Austin and Duke at the absolute top of all Southern schools - by far. The National Research Council rankings, London Times World rankings, even USNWR own departmental rankings all show the same result, with Duke or UT higher overall, depending on the source. In addition, the undergraduate peer reputation score of UT-Austin (according to USNWR) is 4.1, placing it at LEAST at the same level for undergrad as some of these other schools (Rice, Vanderbilt) and higher than others (Emory). It's one thing to say quality of student body is important, but a lot of people are placing 100% of the importance on this and completing negating UT-Austin's academic superiority to nearly ALL of the schools being mentioned. Why is it fair to place 100% of the weight on student quality and 0% on institutional strength? And again, there are honors programs within UT where the students ARE the same caliber as their Ivy counterparts. There are 3 factors that make an undergraduate experience excellent - excellent faculty/departments, excellent students, and excellent resources. As a state school, UT by law can never have the same average student stats as a selective private. However, it does have exceptional students in honors programs, and completely overshadows the other universities in the other 2 factors.</p>

53

<p>UT austin is the next powerhouse ..watch out UCLA and berkeley</p>

54

<p>Ivies clearly have no parallels...they were founded hundreds of years ago by the greatest americans of all time and in turn have produce the greatest americans...southern schools haven't been the same since sherman rolled through</p>

55

<p>I don't understand why a lot of opinions on here are so drastically different from scholarly rankings. Does it really matter if a university is public, if the best programs are located there?</p>

<p>In fairness to other schools mentioned in this thread, the following rankings don't include the NRC rankings, which are out of date compared to more recent ones, but also rank UT's academic quality clearly at the top.</p>

<p>2006 London Times World rankings</p>

<p>2006 US Rank among Southern schools/World Rank 2005/2006
1/11/13 Duke
2/27/23 Johns Hopkins
3/26/32 UT-Austin
4/114/53 Vanderbilt
5/141/56 Emory
6/150/102(tied) Rice
7/199/111(tied) Wake Forest
8/105/130(tied) UVA</p>

<p>2005 London Times US Ranking:
1. Harvard
2. MIT
3. Stanford
4. Berkeley
5. Yale
6. Caltech
7. Princeton
8. Duke
9. Cornell
10.(tie) Chicago/UCSF
12. Columbia
13. UT-Austin
14. Johns Hopkins
15. Penn
16. Michigan
17. UCLA
18. UCSD
19. Carnegie Mellon
20. Northwestern</p>

<p><a href="http://www.alnaja7.org/success/Education/times_world_ranking_2005.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.alnaja7.org/success/Education/times_world_ranking_2005.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://www.paked.net/higher_education/rankings/times_2006.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.paked.net/higher_education/rankings/times_2006.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>The Top 25 Research Universities in the U.S., based on the depth and breadth of academic quality of programs</p>

<ol>
<li> Stanford University </li>
<li> University of California , Berkeley </li>
<li> Harvard University </li>
<li> University of Michigan , Ann Arbor </li>
<li> Princeton University </li>
<li> Massachussetts Institute of Technology </li>
<li> Columbia University </li>
<li> Yale University </li>
<li> University of Chicago </li>
<li> Cornell University </li>
<li> University of California , Los Angeles </li>
<li> University of Wisconsin , Madison </li>
<li> California Institute of Technology </li>
<li> University of Texas , Austin </li>
<li> University of Illinois , Urbana-Champaign<br></li>
<li> University of Pennsylvania </li>
<li> Johns Hopkins University </li>
<li>(tie) Duke University </li>
<li>(tie) Northwestern University </li>
<li> University of Minnesota , Twin Cities </li>
<li>New York University</li>
<li>University of North Carolina , Chapel Hill</li>
<li>(tie) University of California , San Diego </li>
<li>(tie) University of Washington , Seattle<br></li>
<li>Brown University</li>
</ol>

<p>Runner-up:
Carnegie-Mellon University </p>

<p>other schools studied (unranked):
University of Maryland , College Park
Rutgers University , New Brunswick
University of Virginia
Washington University , St. Louis
Ohio State University
Indiana University , Bloomington
Pennsylvania State University
Purdue University
University of California , Santa Barbara
University of Rochester
Rice University
University of California , Davis
Emory University
University of California , Irvine<br>
Georgetown University
University of Iowa<br>
Vanderbilt University</p>

<p><a href="http://www.philosophicalgourmet.com/2006/topresearch.asp%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.philosophicalgourmet.com/2006/topresearch.asp&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>


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<p>


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<p>These statements are only true if completely ignoring faculty quality, department rankings, world reputations, libraries, museums, etc. Then, yes, if we are only looking at the AVERAGE undergraduate student body stats, UT doesn't compete with these universities, for whatever it's worth. However, if we do focus on these factors, then the argument is the other way around.</p>

57

<p>some people here believe that going to an ivy league school is gonna give them the big $ and give them the dream jobs...so pathetic!!!</p>

58

<p>


</p>

<p>Let's look at libraries as a starter. Yes, they have had over a century head-start over UT for the most rare and important books and manuscripts. So...</p>

<p>"Ranked among the top three American cultural archives of its kind — after the Library of Congress and the New York Public Library — the Ransom's [Center at UT-Austin] $1 billion collection contains 40 million rare books, manuscripts, photographs and works of art. "
"There's a good deal of awe at the speed at which the Ransom[at UT-Austin] has been able to build such extensive collections by the dint of a lot of energy and a good deal of money," said Jean Ashton, director of the rare books and manuscript library at Columbia University. "We admire it and are more than a little bit jealous.""
<a href="http://www.statesman.com/specialrepo...ainransom.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.statesman.com/specialrepo...ainransom.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>"Horowitz confirms that. He did not call Princeton about the Mailer papers. Why bother? He knew that Princeton almost certainly would not match the kind of money he could expect to get from the Ransom Center. Horowitz believes it’s a simple difference of priorities. “At Texas,” he says, “they have identified the pursuit of literary scholarship through original manuscripts as a way of being in the world. Princeton, for whatever reason, does not seem to share this sentiment.”..."The Ransom’s awesome holdings, which for some time have exerted something like a gravitational pull on other contemporary authors, make it more likely that in the future other writers will want to be part of this amazing collection."
<a href="http://www.princeton.edu/%7Epaw/archiv...anuscript.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.princeton.edu/~paw/archiv...anuscript.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>"How important is the Carlton Lake Collection [at UT-Austin]? Florence de Lussy, conservateur en chef de manuscrits at the Bibliotheque Nationale in Paris, had a straightforward answer... "Remarkable," she said... "In certain areas, for example Paul Valery, the most important writer in 20th century France, you must go to Texas if you want to study the man thoroughly... Consequently, the Carlton Lake Collection is essential, and very well known here in France. I wish it were here and not there."
-excerpt from "A Gentle Madness" (Nicholas Basbanes)</p>

<p>But of course, outstanding libraries are yet another factor unimportant compared to undergrad selectivity.</p>

59

<p>not to mention their performamce arts facilities and program</p>

60

<p>oops bad links above
Princeton quote -
<a href="http://www.princeton.edu/%7Epaw/archive_new/PAW05-06/05-1116/features_manuscript.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.princeton.edu/~paw/archive_new/PAW05-06/05-1116/features_manuscript.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Columbia quote -
<a href="http://www.statesman.com/specialreports/content/specialreports/ransom/17mainransom.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.statesman.com/specialreports/content/specialreports/ransom/17mainransom.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>