For Penn applicants interested in Computer Science with a little less coding, but with more coverage of Networks, Systems, Economics, and Data Science, consider the NETS program.
As far as I know, Penn SEAS has the only undergraduate program in the country that offers this level of combined depth and breadth.
Here is the link:
http://www.nets.upenn.edu
Thanks for helping make others aware of this program; not very many people apply for it every year.
To give my perspective, I entered Penn the same year that the NETS program took its first students (the 2011-2012 school year), and I am very close friends with a lot of people in it. The general consensus was that most students would probably have been better off as pure CIS majors. Why is this? Most of my friends went into pure software development roles, and the NETS major does not require a few classes that are core to the CIS curriculum. Moreover, they said that the ESE classes required were next to useless across the board, as were a lot of the ECON classes. While the interdisciplinary blend of these subject areas sounds really nice in theory, you end up not having sufficient exposure to any one subject area.
In general, I think the whole “networked and social systems” twist is nothing but a marketing tactic. Students that graduate Penn’s CIS program are just as equipped to handle those areas of study.
@keasbey Nights “nothing but a marketing tactic”
If it is nothing but a marketing tactic, then it is the worst job of marketing I have ever seen. lol No one seems to know this option exists.
@“Keasbey Nights” “the ESE classes required were next to useless across the board, as were a lot of the ECON classes”
NETS students are taking the same Systems engineering and Econ classes that the students in those majors are taking, so I sure hope they aren’t useless. lol I do think they may be useless to the student who only wants to code. If you want someone to tell you what they want to make and then you go and code to the specifications provided, then I think these classes may be useless. However, if you want to be involved in designing and organizing the systems, or to learn about best practices in assessing Big Data, then I think it could really be beneficial.
@“Keasbey Nights” “Students that graduate Penn’s CIS program are just as equipped to handle those areas of study.”
I do agree with you that there is a significant amount of overlap. Both have extensive CIS course requirements, and clearly both will be able to compete for similar types of jobs. However, for CIS positions that require a knowledge of systems, economics, data science, how sociology impacts Facebook and other similar apps, it would appear to provide the student with a benefit. If the job is only coding and not related to any of those areas, then the pure CIS major would seem to have an advantage. I think it depends on the students interests. I am not saying that NETS is better than CIS, just an option worth considering that many students may not even be aware of.
@ Keasbey Nights “While the interdisciplinary blend of these subject areas sounds really nice in theory, you end up not having sufficient exposure to any one subject area.”
The depth question is always a difficult one. It is a potential concern, but it is no different than all of the joint/dual degree programs. There is always some trade off of depth to add cross functional breadth. If depth is the most important thing, then all of the joint/dual degree programs should be avoided: M & T, VIPER, and Huntsman, DMD, Vangelos Life Sciences program. I don’t see that happening. They are all quite popular.
It does seem that they have tried to minimize the loss of depth via the extensive requirements. Because of the requirements, NETS is the only major I am aware of at Penn that precludes the student from adding a second major. That suggests to me that they intend to ask a lot from their students, but anticipate that the students will gain something valuable in return.
@Keasbey Nights “The general consensus was that most students would probably have been better off as pure CIS majors”
Well, NETS is more difficult to be admitted to than CIS, so if they try it and it is not for them, it should be very easy to change back. Are they all doing that? It is my understanding that NETS is receiving increasing numbers of applications for admission both from incoming freshmen and transfers.
Thanks for sharing information. I appreciate the opportunity to discuss it with you. I hope you can share more. Also, if you know a NETS major who would be willing to share their experience with the forum readers, that would be very helpful too.
Yes, I meant useless with respect to what most NETS students are actually doing after graduation.
NETS offers no classes in “big data” (forgive the quotes; big data is just such an overused buzzphrase these days). In fact, no class at Penn teaches big data. Penn does offer statistics and machine learning courses, of course, but any of the relevant courses are not part of any of the engineering degrees.
That’s the issue, though. Those positions by and large don’t exist. My friends in NETS thought that the program would get them some unique insight into “social networks,” whatever that even means, but it’s not like junior software engineers at Facebook and Twitter are sitting around postulating about sociology.
I have one bud from NETS who I thought was a really good fit for the program. He also doesn’t like writing code, but he loves doing mathematical research into graph theory. I think he recently dropped out of Penn to found a data analytics company based on differential privacy.
He also had to do lots of independent research to gain these skills, so I’m not even sure that NETS was the reason why he was able to get to where he is today.
Yes, I agree. I’m just counter-balancing that by saying that a lot of students who think that NETS would be a good fit for them would be better served by pursuing the traditional computer science degree. Good to have both sides (:
All of the programs you mentioned (besides DMD) are dual-degree programs, so depth isn’t really sacrificed; it’s just a substantially heavier course load. M&T gives a business education and an engineering education, not half of each.
DMD is different, as you cut some of the computer science core to make room for graphics design, but the difference is that DMD majors actively go into relevant fields, like animation at Pixar. There just aren’t really relevant NETS positions. It’s something that sounds really attractive to university administrators, but what students are actually doing in industry doesn’t relate.
They are not. I think this is because by the time they realize it’s not a good fit, they’ve already sunk too much time into the degree and feel obligated to complete it.
For what it’s worth, several of my NETS friends realized that they are missing core CIS curriculum courses that they should really take to be at parity with others, so they simply added those classes into their schedule nonetheless. A big one is the introductory computer architecture course, CIS 240.
No problem! I’ll ask a couple of them.
@Keasbey Nights “NETS offers no classes in “big data””
I was specifically contemplating the OID courses (was OPIM) that are Data Science focused. Those can be part of a NETS major, if you choose OID as your depth area.
@keasbey Nights “All of the programs you mentioned (besides DMD) are dual-degree programs, so depth isn’t really sacrificed; it’s just a substantially heavier course load. M&T gives a business education and an engineering education, not half of each.”
Actually, that is a concern for M & T students. they know they could learn a lot more about business or engineering, if they chose just one. NETS is a minimum of 40 credits, and M & T is a minimum of 46 credits, so it is a few more classes, but is not even close to double the amount. M & T is a heavier course load, but depth is also sacrificed. The same student could have taken 46 credits in just computer science, for example. There is always a trade off.
“A big one is the introductory computer architecture course, CIS 240.”
Yes, I agree that that class is important, but they can just add it.
@“Keasbey Nights” Yes, I agree. I’m just counter-balancing that by saying that a lot of students who think that NETS would be a good fit for them would be better served by pursuing the traditional computer science degree. Good to have both sides (:"
Honestly, I do not know what the best path is, or which I would choose, but I do think that the NETS option seems to be under-the-radar, looks like it is worth considering, and may be something that a CIS major might want to discuss with their faculty advisor. The fact that there is a discussion about this topic seems like a good thing.
@ “Keasbey Nights” One thing that I am always impressed with is the level of passion that Penn students bring to whatever major they choose. I think you exemplify that well. Students work hard on their majors, believe in them, and are passionate about them. That suggests to me that Penn is doing a good job in student selection and in constructing their major programs. I am glad you are passionate about CIS.
https://www.facebook.com/netsdegree/posts/1660075414204280
A good example of why NETS matters.