The question was not necessarily “wait” but rather work with the other side with some level of respect as people regardless of viewpoint. The quotation I pulled out from your reference states constructive tension… and a tolerance for it. I’m not sure the name-calling and actions on both sides, as well as the reactions in response to behavior due to this tension, is tolerant or constructive.
Because one is right, is it correct to forgo all of ones values/beliefs/code of conduct and go Mr Kurtz on the other side? Please understand that I fully support what we’re supporting here, but I think how one does things still speaks to our character, and our character is what our children will remember, and learn from, as they form their own. We call for rehabilitation for criminals, but offer no hope for it for others that commit other types of “crime”.
I’m not saying forget, nor even forgive; I’m saying always strive for a solution and a future. If we are just waiting for people to die off and hopefully not spread their vitriol before they do so, we will be waiting a long time, a long time during which we will be spreading our own vitriol. It doesn’t sound like progress.
Is it name-calling to call those who actually are racist “racist”? Perhaps some may want to be respectful and say that they are very fine people and not refer to the racism, but that (at best) is like trying to avoid the whole discussion rather than striving for a solution.
I agree that avoidance is wrong. But imagine the person misbehaving was one’s mother, or anyone one wants to maintain a relationship with. What would be the approach? Would it be to “call them out” and verbally shame? Shout them down so they can’t spread their illness? Or to adjust the delivery so that they are still listening after the subject is broached? The goal is a conversation right?
I know in many cases a real conversation is impossible. But I’m suggesting that the way we approach the conversation is observed by many on the sidelines and it turns them off. My sibling’s in-laws voted for Trump and are from the south (and we happen to be different ethnicities). I like them; they are good people and I will defend them fully, even though I don’t agree with their choice for president. I don’t like talking politics with them, but I want to understand them. How do I reconcile that with some colleagues and friends that I mostly agree with, but who instantly refer to those that support Trump as racists or enablers of racists? Is that how I should broach the topic with them?
We cannot continue this path and expect anything other than more of the same. The goal is good and correct and worth fighting for; I’m all in. We should be more discerning though and still look for a path/solution that unites us, not one that allows both sides to behave in counter-productive ways just because Trump is in office.
roethlisburger: I feel like I live at ground zero and am just describing what I see. Five years ago only cranky old coots openly supported he Klan. Now there are an increasing number of young folks, some even openly claiming membership. When flags go up after a national tragedy, I don’t think the main purpose is to tick off white liberals, though I’m sure that’s an added benefit. I hope they aren’t in your neighbood five years from now. Even as a born and bred southerner, I would never have expected what I’m seeing and hearing out here in the middle-of-nowhere-rural-south.
In my personal observations of people in my area, many who voted Republican are conservative Christians who vote for whomever opposes abortion. Anything economic that comes their way (actual or potential) is gravy. They do not have acquaintances that are minority and lack exposure to what the communities think and feel.
My family has a lake cabin in a rural area. We are white, Latino, black, and mixed race, blue collar, white collar, and pink collar. We integrated the lake. Our kids go to college. I am hoping that the neighbors are seeing that we go fishing, swim, have bonfires, etc just like they do. We sit around and shoot the breeze with them. I work hard to keep the communication going.
My hope is that when they read in the newspaper thing like how hard it is for minorities in the sciences, they don’t discount it as whining but instead wonder at how my girls are holding up. My hope is when they hear a person complain about Mexican Americans, they point to my husband as an example of what a migrant worker’s son can become.
Casual racism is in all communities and political parties. Just yesterday I heard of a performing arts teacher at a metropolitan school laughing at a black student’s dance saying she danced like a gorilla! I am pretty sure she pulled the democrat lever in the election booth.
I’m going to respectfully bow out of this thread. Perhaps my question regarding the “best path” to reach our goal is not on topic, and perhaps detracts from a discussion on the critical situation at hand in our country.
Please indulge me one more anecdote, and I ask some forgiveness for posting then running. When my S was two, we were in Las Vegas and were waiting for a shuttle to pick us up at the hotel. A woman, of minority ethnicity, sat next to us on a long stone bench. My two year old, for whatever reason, was looking at the lady for some amount of time (we’re all parents here; we’ve seen our children do this time and again). The woman became irritated and lashed out asking us why our child kept looking at her and spat out “hasn’t he seen an [minority group] person before?” I don’t know how, but my two year old had initiated a racial incident, even though people of her ethnicity were readily found in his day care, gymboree group, and church. We of course apologized and instructed our S to pay attention to other matters, but the pure indignation on the lady’s part left an impression on me.
I know that was one person and one incident. But like the flags, I see milder forms of it more and more often. European transplants angered because their neighbors asked them where they were from during a get-together. People getting upset because others described their neighborhood 30 years ago in a positive light (it was less diverse back then, but that was not his point…). People getting worked up because someone asked their help to define a term in their native language. Yes, maybe not the most proper thing to do, but is it worth a fight? Worth making an enemy over?
Why we sometimes give in to divisive tactics and don’t look for a better way to handle this issue (and yes it needs to be handled on many fronts and arenas) troubles me.
The SPLC high estimate is 8,000 members. To put that in context for a country of almost 326 million people, that works out to 0.0032% of the adult population.
@chippedtoof The best analogy I can come up with is bruising. If a pencil pokes your arm repeatedly, even not increasing the pressure, it is going to begin to hurt and form a bruise. The woman above was likely “bruised” by many negative encounters, seemingly innocuous to the pencil, and her psyche was starting to bruise. I promise you, this was not her first time to be stared at. Instead of your take away being that people are being too sensitive, please find a way to reframe it as them having been “bruised” by repeated slights. Therefore you will have some compassion, not irritation.
@“Snowball City” That’s a mischaracterization of my reaction and what I wrote so I believe you are being unfair here. I had sympathy with confusion and shock (where did you get irritation? I apologized to her…). But that is besides the point. The reaction, understandable as it may be, just doesn’t help the situation… that is all I am saying, and could possibly hurt. And such reactions are increasing in frequency.
@OHMomof2 And yes the guys in Charlottesville were pretty young. Which is why I said that’s a long time to wait.
I believe both sides should have the attitude to chip-in in any such situation. Also, it seems that I’m a minority too doesn’t seem to be playing into this… (I know I only hinted but… now, do you want to hear if I was called names? Whether that hurt or not? Whether I thought I was sensitive or not? And what I chose to do? And how many countries this happened to me or my parents?) None of this is easy.
However, there are many more people who subscribe to less extreme types of racism. (Note: not necessarily just white people, but white people’s preferences tend to have a much greater aggregate impact due to greater numbers and therefore aggregate economic and political power, even if individual persons are individually powerless.)
For example, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3704191/ describes an experiment where people in Chicago and Detroit areas were asked to rate the desirability of various neighborhoods shown in photos. One not surprising result was that both white and black people preferred higher social class neighborhoods. But they also found that, independently, the apparent racial composition of the neighborhoods shown affected preferences. White respondents tended to have a preference order of white > mixed > black, while black respondents tended to have a preference order of mixed > black > white. It should not be hard to see that such preferences tend to push toward neighborhood racial segregation and “white flight”.
How do you actually broach the topic of racism to your sibling’s in-laws? Is it effective as getting them to change their viewpoints on racism and such? Or do you find from such conversations that their views are “hardened” and unchangeable?
I haven’t broached the topic; they enthusiastically support the marriage and have shown themselves to be good people from honest and modest backgrounds. We respectfully discussed their support of Trump and their rationale was similar to the examples expressed in this article (which is on the topic of health care but the values, situations, and viewpoints apply imo): https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/10/02/is-health-care-a-right
My role was to listen more than I talked (avoid left/right-splaining, gender-spaining, etc) repeat their rationale back to them so as to better assure I heard them right, celebrate the overlaps, and try to identify the grey areas where different viewpoints stand on different points on the spectrum. I try not to discuss right and wrong but rather position on this spectrum. Each position should be endorsed as a rational one, given the situation and values involved. This talk resonated with me on this regard (I’m sure people have seen it):
They have expressed reservations for moving closer to us due to attitudes and activities of the political/social left, mirroring what a lot of people around here say about their area… which left me with the bleak realization that this country is really in a bad place with very few paths of recovery.
What I find, is that most people don’t disagree on right and wrong (other than the extremists and I’m personally not invested in discussing things with them… they don’t want to hear from me) but rather the issue is prioritization of the values we both deem as “good” and deserving of support. With give and take on that prioritization, I believe progress can be made.
With my sib-in-laws, we haven’t found areas of disagreement really. Certainly not enough to damage a relationship over. It still is nerve-wracking and I do step gingerly.
“However, there are many more people who subscribe to less extreme types of racism.”
And there are plenty of people who subscribe to the same extreme type of racism but are not associated specifically with the KKK but one of dozens of other groups that have sprung up. The KKK is your granddad’s form of white supremacy. Plenty of new groups out there, unfortunately. A lot lurking on the internet. Just like ISIS, they increasingly indoctrinate and recruit online.
" How do I reconcile that with some colleagues and friends that I mostly agree with, but who instantly refer to those that support Trump as racists or enablers of racists? Is that how I should broach the topic with them?"
Good question. Name calling is not the opening for a constructive two-way discussion.
Teach your kids to be open to new views. No matter their age.
Listen to the “other side” without getting defensive. Stand up for your beliefs .
It’s important to challenge what we believe in and why we believe.
And it’s okay to challenge someone else’s view… And okay to change your own.
Have your kids (and you) Get FACTS (which change …what didn’t happen yesterday may have today).
Consider the SOURCE of 'facts" (who is pushing the “agenda”?) What’s the news source? What do other news source’s say? When someone “insists” they are “right” --ask about why and where that opinion is formed—personal experience? news? history? school?
THINK! For yourself. We have so much “bombardment” from so many sources.
Good and bad. Right and left. Social media.
@roethlisburger
Since the number of Klan members is “minuscule” should we just ignore them? While they grow in power and influence. And while they kill who knows how many other people like they did in Charlottesville?