<p>I don't get Southerners. If they saw Latino-Americans flying flags of Mexico or El Salvador, they'd probably get all riled up about them not being patriotic. Yet they're the ones flying the flags of a traitorous state.</p>
<p>That is one of the best points I've heard made in a while.
I like you.</p>
<p>PROBABLY?!?!</p>
<p>That's exactly how it is.</p>
<p>Here's what you'll hear in defense: The Confederate battle flag represents their Southern heritage and the Anglo-Celtic tradition that rightfully should govern the South. Not the U.S. government. The flag of Mexico or Hispanic states violate the sovereignty of the South and are offensive to the Anglo-Celtic heritage that built the South and defines its character.</p>
<p>But then...it wasn't that long ago that instead of white supremacist geezers flying the rebel flag, it was displayed by kids who were...well, rebels. It wasn't widely seen as a racist symbol. The flag of choice of the KKK was, until recently, the U.S. flag. It was kids who hated their white establishment parents who flew the Confederate flag as a sign of rebellion against the establishment -- think Southern rock bands and even the roof of the "General Lee" on the Dukes of Hazzard.</p>
<p>Somewhere along the way -- in just the past 20 years -- the Confederate flag was taken over by crusty, embittered white guys who -- more often than not -- feel victimized by other people. It's the blacks who bring about moral decay and create an environment where their wives can leave them (not because they beat them and don't let them out of the kitchen). And it's Hispanics who steal their jobs away from them (not because they're being outworked by people willing to accept lower wages or because they've grown too fat from eating pork rinds to be effective at their jobs).</p>
<p>But I've seen several counterprotests to marches by Hispanic groups protesting immigration reforms where the counterprotestors just totally flip out when they see the Mexican flag while they wave, in reply, the Confederate battle flag. So it happens. No "probably" about it.</p>
<p>The word you're looking for is treason.</p>
<p>As a born and raised southerner, I have no connection to the flag and I find it offensive. I find your characterization of "I don't get Southerners" offensive also. When an intelligent Southerner meets you on the street and speaks in a drawl and holds the door open for you, are you going to think he or she has a battle flag flying in their front yard? I would also note your reference to Hispanics as Latino-Americans as blanket. I personally believe we ascribe the -American after legal immigration (which some do) and after citizenship/visa status is granted. Not all Hispanics in the US are citizens and not all Southerners want another war.</p>
<p>I don't think it's as unpatriotic against the current government as some have said though. For some, it's a symbol of pride in heritage, essentially the same as flying a Mexican (et al) flag. For others, it's a symbol of rebellion and hatred and all those misguided opinions. Treason? Many of the trucks I see have the US flag and the battle flag on the same bumper. If it's an act of intelligent protest (normally it isn't), then it's protected speech. Treason/being a traitor involves action, not just speech. Treason is a very serious crime and punishable by death. Regional pride and racial hatred are not acts of treason. Flying a symbol of a rebellion (which may or may not have been treasonous on a legal level) is not treason either. Hypocrisy, which is what you described, is not treason either.</p>
<p>D'yer Maker - Please show a little restraint when exercising your Constitutional right to make broad stereotypes, even against bad people. Racism doesn't just exist in the South and these scummy, racist men have a right to sell materials as long as they don't break the plane into harassment. I hate what they say but censorship isn't the answer.</p>
<p>An aside - Unlike Iman's controversial remarks, most flag wavings are free speech issues. If someone wants to fly a flag or hold a racist rally or march for the ERA, they're all protected by the same amendment. If, however, the flag becomes a true symbol of harassment, it becomes a criminal matter, and the offender, be it a skinhead or a church going grandma, should be prosecuted. We have laws for a reason and even the most backward and unpopular (and hypocritical) statements are protected until they legally cross over. Everyone can debate the right-or-wrong but leave the stereotypes in your mind and try to raise the level of debate in the cafe, rather than calling people lazy, wife-beating, bitter, pork-rind eating racists. </p>
<p>I would suggest that those of you whose only image of the South is Uncle Tom's Cabin or "Cops," take it upon themselves to do some cultural education. There are bad places, there are bad people, and there are bad ideas, no doubt, but ignorance and stereotypes are not the solution.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Please show a little restraint when exercising your Constitutional right to make broad stereotypes
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Don't act like you're not making vast generalizations and stereotypes:</p>
<p>
[quote]
When an intelligent Southerner meets you on the street and speaks in a drawl and holds the door open for you
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I never understood the whole "southern hospitality" thing, I haven't come across a southerner who is any more kind or selfless, actually, it is usually the opposite. (and yes, i know, that was a stereotype!)</p>
<p>This whole argument is based on stereotypes, so it is redundant to state its appearence.</p>
<p>My comment about cultural education was to identify where some Southern stereotypes come from and was not directed at any specific group of people. If I made any stereotypes that offended anyone of any creed, race, nationality, locality, sexual orientation, gender, height, or for any reason whatsoever, I apologize.</p>
<p>There are many legal and illegal immigrants in this country and I was trying to split, not generalize, Hispanic immigrants to the United States, as the OP mentioned immigration from Latin America. The immigration policies of the US are another topic entirely.</p>
<p>I wasn't trying to say that Southerners are any more friendly or polite than people from other regions. I was simply showing an instance where a person with a Southern accent could be kind and how stereotyping can be incorrect. I have met people from other parts of the country who are kinder and more selfless than people from the South. It illustrates how good stereotypes can be just as false as bad ones. </p>
<p>I don't know what else is going to be fleshed out by this thread or what the original intent was, so I'm going to go ahead and stop posting. </p>
<p>RACISM BAD! NATURALISM BAD! STEREOTYPING BAD! Agreed?</p>
<p>
[quote]
I don't get Southerners. If they saw Latino-Americans flying flags of Mexico or El Salvador, they'd probably get all riled up about them not being patriotic. Yet they're the ones flying the flags of a traitorous state.
[/quote]
Of the Southerners who rock the confederate flags - I agree with your statement completely.</p>
<p>If you're flying another flag you better have a USA flag next to it.</p>
<p>"NATURALISM BAD! "</p>
<p>what's that?</p>
<p>Nativism, not naturalism. My bad. Nativism is a social and political philosophy (like the Know-Nothing movement of the 1850s) that blames foreigners and immigrants for society's ills.</p>
<p>I'm all for Southern pride, but they can't just ignore the fact that their Confederacy was the gravest threat ever to the United States of America. Yes, even more than Osama and his Muslamic minions.</p>
<p>Muslamic? I thought we agreed on Islamofascist. Although even that doesn't work b/c it suggests that terrorism is just a more extreme form of Islam. Actually it's no form of Islam since it follows no rules of Islam.
Just being picky.</p>
<p>"A traitorous state" indeed. History really is written by the winners. Colonies secede from Britain and they're patriots. States secede from the Union and they're traitors. :rolleyes:</p>
<p>I hate to nitpick with D'yer Maker, but the proper term would be Anglo-Saxon. Americans have very little in common with the Celtic peoples, who share a closer linguistic background with India than they do with the US.</p>
<p>Symbols come to mean very different things over time. Like the swastika...now it means fascism and genocide, but 100 years ago, it was something entirely different. It all depends on the reason using it--if it's for white supremecy, that's horrid. But the secession and Civil War was hardly about slavery at the beginning, but more about states' rights. And to tell you the truth, I hate the federalists.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Muslamic? Traitorship? Is this some kind of experimental linguists circle-jerk...
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Traitorship is a real word: I looked it up on webster.com. As for Muslamic, I was being stupid on purpose to emphasize the cluelessness most neo-conservatives have when it comes to the Middle East and Muslims. </p>
<p>
[quote]
"A traitorous state" indeed. History really is written by the winners. Colonies secede from Britain and they're patriots. States secede from the Union and they're traitors.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The 13 colonies were a distant and relatively autonomous state when they rebelled. Most people in Britain couldn't care less what those frontier people across the pond were doing. Many Britons actually sympathized with the freedom-seeking Americans more than their own repressive Redcoats. It was at the height of the Enlightenment.</p>
<p>Then you have the Confederates, who committed pure treason right in the heart of America. Slavery, state rights, whatever, it was still treason. Just because they're White and Christian doesn't make it okay.</p>
<p>Whatever the Confederate flag is, it makes me nauseous.</p>
<p>However, as a card-carrying member of the ACLU, I figure...fly whatever flag you want.</p>
<p>"I'm all for Southern pride, but they can't just ignore the fact that their Confederacy was the gravest threat ever to the United States of America. Yes, even more than Osama and his Muslamic minions."</p>
<p>Agreed.</p>
<p>
[quote]
As a born and raised southerner, I have no connection to the flag and I find it offensive. I find your characterization of "I don't get Southerners" offensive also. When an intelligent Southerner meets you on the street and speaks in a drawl and holds the door open for you, are you going to think he or she has a battle flag flying in their front yard? I would also note your reference to Hispanics as Latino-Americans as blanket. I personally believe we ascribe the -American after legal immigration (which some do) and after citizenship/visa status is granted. Not all Hispanics in the US are citizens and not all Southerners want another war.</p>
<p>I don't think it's as unpatriotic against the current government as some have said though. For some, it's a symbol of pride in heritage, essentially the same as flying a Mexican (et al) flag. For others, it's a symbol of rebellion and hatred and all those misguided opinions. Treason? Many of the trucks I see have the US flag and the battle flag on the same bumper. If it's an act of intelligent protest (normally it isn't), then it's protected speech. Treason/being a traitor involves action, not just speech. Treason is a very serious crime and punishable by death. Regional pride and racial hatred are not acts of treason. Flying a symbol of a rebellion (which may or may not have been treasonous on a legal level) is not treason either. Hypocrisy, which is what you described, is not treason either.</p>
<p>D'yer Maker - Please show a little restraint when exercising your Constitutional right to make broad stereotypes, even against bad people. Racism doesn't just exist in the South and these scummy, racist men have a right to sell materials as long as they don't break the plane into harassment. I hate what they say but censorship isn't the answer.</p>
<p>An aside - Unlike Iman's controversial remarks, most flag wavings are free speech issues. If someone wants to fly a flag or hold a racist rally or march for the ERA, they're all protected by the same amendment. If, however, the flag becomes a true symbol of harassment, it becomes a criminal matter, and the offender, be it a skinhead or a church going grandma, should be prosecuted. We have laws for a reason and even the most backward and unpopular (and hypocritical) statements are protected until they legally cross over. Everyone can debate the right-or-wrong but leave the stereotypes in your mind and try to raise the level of debate in the cafe, rather than calling people lazy, wife-beating, bitter, pork-rind eating racists. </p>
<p>I would suggest that those of you whose only image of the South is Uncle Tom's Cabin or "Cops," take it upon themselves to do some cultural education. There are bad places, there are bad people, and there are bad ideas, no doubt, but ignorance and stereotypes are not the solution.
[/quote]
Finally. We're not all inbred hillbillies with a confederate flag waving from the front door. </p>
<p>Personally, I find the flag more than offensive, but treason? No. It's protected under free speech, however unfortunately. But you should know that anyone with a brain knows not to fly that flag because of what it represented.</p>
<p>
[quote]
"A traitorous state" indeed. History really is written by the winners. Colonies secede from Britain and they're patriots. States secede from the Union and they're traitors.
[/quote]
True! Go Confederacy!</p>
<p>My sweet magnolia blossoms of college confidential,</p>
<p>I live in the grand city of Memphis Tennessee and I have never even heard others speak of such things as the Civil War and other things of that nature. </p>
<p>Why mercy me and lawdy be I think some of you Northerners just have too much time on what I am sure are your cold hands. Y'all just jealous of our fine weather is all. Shall I pour y'all a bourbon and branch water and have one of my handmaidens tend to your cold hands before my wood burning stove? </p>
<p>This here one time I saw that there flag you folks seem to be referring to. I went on a trip deep in the country side and I was in route to making sweet love with my three toed cousin Wilbur amongst the flowered grounds of the riverbed and was driven by a watering hole which had such a flag on its roof. The city my Wilbur lives in is where that young man Justin Timberlake is from.</p>
<p>y'all take care now, 'ya hear,</p>
<p>Mildred</p>