Conservatory vs LAC Performance program

College Majors Music Major
1

<p>S is looking to study jazz performance (guitar) next year. His current and former teachers have commented that he should avoid studying at a conservatory. At the time, I thought, "ok, he's not going to Eastman because he doesn't play classical guitar" but now that we have visited a few schools, I am questioning that advice. When I look at the course requirements for Performance majors at conservatories and LAC's, they seem quite similar/rigorous. What are the pros/cons of studying at a conservatory (such as NEC) vs. a program like the Mason Gross School of music at Rutgers? I know that students at an LAC can switch majors if they change their mind but what other pros/cons should we be aware of such as caliber of students and environment. As a non musical person, I am clueless. Please let me know if I have missed a previous thread that answers this question. </p>

<p>So far, S has looked at UARts, Temple, Rutgers/Mason Gross and William Paterson. Next week, The New School, Hartt School, and SUNY Purchase. Any other suggestions for jazz guitar performance? Jazzzmomm, what drew your son to NEC?</p>

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<p>jazzlib, welcome. The strict conservatory versus LAC/university program quandary has been rehashed a number of times here, usually within an existing thread and often as a tangential discussion.</p>

<p>It therefore makes using the search function a bit frustrating, and normally results in a selection of numerous prior posts, and you end up reading a lot of additional info, which in my opinion is a worthy exercise for the uninitiated.</p>

<p>I will point out a couple of recent threads that discuss some aspects and observations of your question.</p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/476176-joint-programs.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/476176-joint-programs.html&lt;/a>
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/460187-how-many-music-voice-performance-majors-find-jobs.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/460187-how-many-music-voice-performance-majors-find-jobs.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I'll also add my standard plug for BassDad's great overview post here <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/258796-so-you-want-music-major-one-family-s-experience.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/258796-so-you-want-music-major-one-family-s-experience.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>A good general overview is also here Peabody</a> Institute - Conservatory Admissions: The Articles</p>

<p>In general, there are a number of reasons to go either route. One is the less stringent academic/stat criteria most straight conservatories use in deciding admissions. Admission is based on audition results. LAC/university based programs will use a combination of heavily weighted audition based results in conjunction with institution specific academic parameter minimums, which vary widely.</p>

<p>A strict conservatory is limiting insofar as there are minimum non-music liberal arts requirements, and may be structured for the lowest common denominator students. Students with high academic experiences and standards may be frustrated and disappointed with the quality, depth and stimulation, as well as the limited selection of this coursework.</p>

<p>Students with additional strong non music interests or equal love for a seperate discipline cannot satisfy themselves intellectually within a standard conservatory curriculum. Some may be put off by these "limiting" aspects.</p>

<p>It's important to look at the differences between straight conservatory/ conservatory level programs within an LAC or university, and music school based programs within institutions. The level of music immersion is best revealed by comparing degree requirements between programs, and assessing total performance/ensemble/theory/history versus liberal arts and general elective (non-music) credits needed. This info is usually found within the undergrad handbook, normally accessible online through each school's website. </p>

<p>The most important factors in selection are centered around student/instructor match, quality and level of peers, size of program and location, performance and gigging opportunities, type and level of non-music academics, grad versus undergrad mix, general environment and location, and availability of scholarships and general aid.</p>

<p>These will vary widely by student. There's no easy answer. The trick is knowing your kid, and your kid knowing himself and being confident in what he (thinks he) wants. Also, an honest assessment of his ability and potential for growth is imperative in selecting the right program.</p>

<p>Perhaps you/he should begin to ask the why's behind this statement:

[quote]
His current and former teachers have commented that he should avoid studying at a conservatory.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>These current and former teachers may well have some specific info in regards to their own, or their peers experiences, or your son's needs in suggesting a non-conservatory approach. </p>

<p>It's difficult to be more specific without knowing his current level of ability, his academic talents or weaknesses, and the depth and level of his musical experiences.</p>

<p>Good luck.</p>

3

<p>Was a little confused by your question. It looks like your son is looking at conservatories, not LAC's, is that right?</p>

<p>We did not really make that much of a distinction between free-standing conservatories (like NEC, Manhattan, Curtis) and conservatories that are part of a larger college or university (like Eastman, Peabody, Temple, Ithaca, Oberlin etc.) in terms of coursework or expectations.</p>

<p>The freestanding conservatories generally off cross-registration at nearby colleges or universities. The music programs at the free-standing versus college-affiliated conservatories are similar, in our observations.</p>

<p>I thought you were asking about studying music at a conservatory versus at a liberal arts college, which is very different. In college programs, there is usually no performance major, and music courses comprise 1/4-1/3-maybe 1/2 of a student's program, but at a conservatory it is often 3/4.</p>

<p>Your son's teacher comments would apply to the schools he is looking at, right? Are they suggesting music at a LAC that is "well-rounded" and rigorous academically, so that your son's focus is not "too narrow." </p>

<p>We ran into this also. In fact, at one Ivy League college, the music dept. head told our daughter that conservatories are "anti-intellectual." She was so angry, she promptly applied to 4 conservatories (and one college).</p>

<p>No adult should be making comments like this. Adults should be providing information on both options, in a balance way, and leaving it to the kid to decide. </p>

<p>Our daughter got into some great schools, both conservatories and colleges, and is now making the final decision about what direction to pursue. She did keep her options open. But right now, your son is just looking at conservatories, albeit ones affiliated with academic schools.</p>

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<p>It is only my lowly non-musical parent opinion, but I think a great deal of the decision-making on this issue comes down to the individual student's needs. My son always knew he wanted a conservatory. He has always been just barely able to pretend he is interested in most of his academic courses (I am being hyperbolic here, but he is so very focussed on music and is at the top of those classes intellectually. History and English, Math and Science seem, for now, a big distraction from what's really important to him!) The thought of being immersed in applied and academic music is thrilling to him. Many students don't have this narrow focus, though, and know for sure that they want a more wide-reaching experience.</p>

<p>At NEC and I would think at all the major conservatories, the 1/3 of the curriculum devoted to liberal arts classes sound pretty high quality. I don't know exactly where their teachers come from, but the proximity of Tufts,Harvard and Northeastern must inform their liberal arts offerings. I know that at MSM, some liberal arts teachers come from Barnard. From my point of view he couldn't be in a better position than NEC for, not only music, but for that day when he matures into realizing that the world of ideas is very exciting outside of his provincial little high school.</p>

<p>I used to have the opinion that Conservatory trained musicians were somehow limited because of their music-focussed education. But, I have learned so much in the years we have been doing this research with our son. I would be very careful about looking at Conservatories, get a feel for the intellectual environment as well as the music environment and if your child is driven toward performance, I believe he can get an excellent education at any of those top schools that compmom mentioned.</p>

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<p>Thanks violadad and compmom for your thorough replies. I will refer to the recent threads for additional info. Violadad, your reply clearly outlines factors to consider. S and I will begin to more closely examine the course catalogs to find the best fit and discuss what he wants academically. Compmom, you also hit the nail on the head. I was wondering what the differences are between free-standing conservatories and those that are part of larger colleges/univ's. Since we have not yet visited a free-standing conservatory (and being able to fit my knowledge of music programs in a thimble) I was not sure! I was assuming that the programs are very different.</p>

<p>At this point, my S is interested in Jazz Performance. perhaps in combination with an education certificate. He is not considering a general music program at an LAC. I did learn the difference between the programs at the Mason Gross Open House!</p>

<p>As far as the comments made by his teachers. I think that his former teacher has his own personal bias against the "stand alone" type of conservatory setting where the focus is very narrow. I think that his current teacher, a well known musician who is on the staff of a private and public colleges, was speaking to the fact that my S could do very well in Performance program within a LAC setting such as Rutgers, William Paterson or Temple. (Remember that I was confused about what a conservatory is, so his teacher is not steering him away from conservatories) He also mentioned the high cost of NYC conservatory programs as if it was something to avoid. He has said that my S has natural talent and that if he works on sight reading and some fundamentals that were missed with his former teacher, he could "pick the college" he wants to attend. When I heard that comment, I decided that performance was a viable option for my S.</p>

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<p>Jazzmomm, thanks for your insight. My son is in a similar place in regards to his academics! I do think that he has the drive and focus to thrive in a conservatory program, but that will be his decision. We need to be open minded and carefully explore all options.</p>

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<p>jazzzmom wrote:

[quote]
It is only my lowly non-musical parent opinion, but I think a great deal of the decision-making on this issue comes down to the individual student's needs.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That really sums it up in a nutshell. An important part of the process in choosing a school is determining "fit" and the music needs can be offset by any number of individual student factors determined by student's short and long term goals, "Plan B" options, financial considerations.</p>

<p>My son's experience was that he had developed as a musician through a series of pre-conservatory type of programs and instructors, and was in a position to play with a number of high quality, conservatory level peers with a broad range of educational backgrounds and school/career goals. A few of his compadres entered conservatories, a couple went to conservatory level programs within parent institutions (Eastman, Ithaca, Purchase, Peabody), and a couple went the Ivy route at Columbia, Cornell, and Yale and continued to pursue music at a high level as well as career routes in non-music disciplines.</p>

<p>His own choice of school selections was predicated on his initial desire to pursue a double major program, allowing him to pursue and explore his two passions of performance and music ed simultaneously. Academically, he was above average in HS, not stellar, with a top 10% class rank, 3.8 ish GPA, and mid 1300 SAT 1's. While he had strong academic interests, he had no desire to pursue a non music discipline as a career option. His double major dictated that he concentrate his selections within conservatory level programs within university settings, narrowed by options of private instructors, and strength and reputation of the music ed area.</p>

<p>It took him four and a half years (of a five year program) to realize he did not want to pursue music ed as a public school teacher as a career choice, and is pursuing grad schools based on pure performance program criteria.</p>

<p>His HS peers I described above are now either entering MM programs in performance, including two of the Ivy grads. Another is pursuing a masters in music education. One Ivy grad is working in a science/technology field, as was his original plan. Another peer had to drop performance entirely due to health/pain issues, obtained a pilot's license, and graduated as a computer science major, playing only recreationally because of medical issues.</p>

<p>A lot happens in four years, some by design, some by whim of the gods.</p>

<p>Knowing and exploring options means examining all the factors involved and assigning appropriate weight to each.</p>

<p>It's not an easy process.</p>

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<p>One consideration, which again is wholly dependent on the personality of the child and his/her individual needs...conservatory jazz programs tend to be quite small, at least at the more elite schools. Many will have a total enrollment of about 60-80 jazz students, in a total enrolled music student population of about 800-900. For some students, this is a very "small" environment, even for the most dedicated musician. For some, who are more introverted, the size is perfect.</p>

<p>Larger universities with music schools allow music students to meet/live with/take classes with non-music majors. Some musicians are not in the slightest interested in these broader offerings, but some are, and thrive on it. There is quite a lot of variability among the larger programs too, with some being much stronger than others. Again, you have to know your own son, and have an independent appraisal of his talent.</p>

<p>An intensive summer music program can really be revealing to kids, who either love music 24/7, or get tired of it. I would highly recommend it, and even can offer some suggestions for jazz. Feel free to PM me.</p>

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<p>Allmusic is right about the tiny size of the elite jazz programs. We did not even consider Eastman because they really only have one jazz band, and,unless they have grown in the last two years, that represented the whole jazz division. And Julliard is the same--probably 18 kids? </p>

<p>One of my son's considerations was the desire to be in a program where the number of kids on his instrument was small enough that he would get good playing opportunities. NEC has that--about 4 or 5 for each year. I could see where that might not appeal to every student.</p>

<p>The New School is a unique program, being that it is an all-jazz school. You have musicians coming out of that program that sound like a who's who in the jazz scene. It seems like such an exciting place for a very independent kid. But its size was an issue for us. My son was told at his audition that there are usually two guitars per ensemble, and that kind of killed it for him. I think he was worried he might sink from the competition of a large number of ultra-talented musicians, and not get the intense individual work he was looking for.</p>

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<p>My son is jazz tenor sax BM major at NEC for one year. I was very uncomfortable with the idea of a BM major, esp. at a conservatory when he was in 10th grade. I eventually came around to the idea. The other question is whether a degree in music education is better than a music performance degree. That has also been discussed on this website. The third question we considered was whether a dual degree program, like at Oberlin was preferred to a BM in performance only. When my son auditioned at NYU, the president at Steinhardt said, "what is the point of two bachelor degrees, that makes no sense. We at NYU are working on a combined BM/masters degree in performance and music education." After all of those questions, my son decided to apply to all music conservatories and major in jazz performance only. When one of our friends was talking to our son recently, she asked how he liked school. His answer was, that
he feels like he is in heaven, studying music only! I don't know what the future holds for him financially or academically, but for the moment, I am satisfied. Every musician is different of course.</p>

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<p>Tenorsaxdad, since my son is like yours and feels like his dream is coming true to be immersed in music next year, I can only add that it will come from the kid if he or she wants the Conservatory experience. My oldest son wanted to be a theatre major, but wanted a traditional college experience as well, and wouldn't have chosen a fine arts school or Conservatory, and he knew that when it was time to apply.</p>

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<p>I agree. Musical friends of my son are pursuing dual degree programs(northwestern) and liberal arts college degrees (harvard) and are equally happy. Frequently people were so very critical when they heard that my son was planning to get a BM in performance at a conservatory. The next question is often, what is his backup plan? Therefore, should our kids always assume they will fail, because the odds are against them? Does that make it a self-fulfilling prophesy?</p>

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<p>When the drive is there, I just don't think I could ever say, "no, you can't because it just isn't practical." You never know where the road will take them, and they might always regret not pursuing their musical passion. I feel like we've had this discussion before on CC!</p>

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<p>My answer for the "what is the back up plan"? question that people often ask about BM performance majors: the same back-up plan that seems to work for philosphy majors, comp lit majors, history majors, etc. etc.
That said, a double degree is not usually a "back up plan" but rather a way for a student to pursue a variety of interests.</p>

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<p>Agree with nycm. A double degree should not be something done as a back up plan but done because of varied interests. A BM is pretty intense if DD's experience is any indicator. I believe they deserve the chance to devote the energy to be completely successful if that is their drive. Of course you can get a BM in stand alone conservatories or in conservatories housed in other settings, too, including universities. I think that it is a 2 step decision. Degree concentration and setting.</p>

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<p>Depends: if you do a BA in a subject other than music, you can more readily go on to graduate school in that subject; if you go on to law school, you are arguably better prepared if you have taken a lot of writing-intensive courses. That is not to denigrate the many transferable skills developed in a BMus. program or to suggest that a BA is a must, but the academic requirements of a BA are significantly different than those for a BMus.</p>