We are beginning the college search process, and are comparing the benefits of honors colleges, specifically Barrett Honors College at Arizona State and the University Honors Program at the University of Arizona, with mid-size private schools. S (rising senior) will likely also apply to private colleges in California – Univ. San Diego, Loyola Marymount, Santa Clara, along with some UC campuses (UCLA and UCSB are likely applications). We are from Pacific NW, and S would like a change of climate. Cost not an issue.
I think S would like some of the big sports/big college feel of an ASU or UA, but I am not sure about overall quality of the programs when compared to the smaller class sizes at the private colleges. S is considering premed, but really undecided at this point.
Any thoughts on the comparison between these outstanding honors programs and the smaller schools?
This is a good place to start…
http://publicuniversityhonors.com/sample-page/
There’s a book on the subject, which we intend to buy.
We are of the same mindset regarding a small honors college in a big school setting. Its the best of both worlds at a good price (usually).
Good Luck!
Thank you, @STEM2017. Great site. Have you (or others) visited Barrett or UofA? If so, what did you think? We are considering a visit this fall.
We have only visited virtually through the web. No real visits. I envy those who are able to visit.
Honors colleges can be a great choice for those attending a larger school. Honors colleges offer valuable perks and let you meet some of the top students at your college. However they are often oversold with glossy pamphlets implying a small LAC has been set up inside the larger university giving ann elite private education at the public school price. On this forum you’ll read posters who also say/imply that.
Depending on the program offerings may range from separate honors classes to taking just one honors seminar per semester. And some of the “honors” offerings may just be a special discussion section of the regular class (at many U’s you meet 2-3x a week in a large class with the prof, then everyone meets weekly in a discussion section with a TA). You really need to dig in to find what a particular school offers.
Keep in mind honors programs typically offer the small classes and hand-picked profs only the 1st two years of college. They can do this because doesn’t take that many classes to come up with a set that will meet the lower-division requirements for most majors. It is rare to find more than a token amount of upper-division classes since the honors program simply doesn’t have enough faculty members to create entire major(s). So the last two years most/all classes are taken with the rest of the students in the regular U’s classes. The teaching of the profs will be geared towards the normal U level, the discussions and student involvement in class will be dominated by the regular students, and so on. Class sizes may balloon, too, if you’re in a popular major.
Peer effects are big, too; when almost everyone around you at school is a strong student you have lots of good student to emulate in class or outside it such as doing research or internships. If the top kids are a few hundred strong dispersed among tens of thousands at the U then strong examples may be harder to see. When it comes to finding a job, employers are less likely to send recruiters to a campus with a limited number of honors seniors when they can get a campus-full at more highly regarded schools.
Honors colleges do offer some valuable perks, in addition to the classes. Typical ones include registering for classes before everyone else so you get the classes you want (a perk worth its weight in gold!), special counselors, guaranteed housing, special library privileges. They will mark your diploma with special recognition. However I would be dubious of claims that you’re getting the full private college experience at a public school price.
Each honors program is different, so it is important to do your homework to make sure that the program meets your needs . I personally believe that many Honors programs do offer a good alternative to a private school. My son’s Honors program offered him greater academic options than any of the private schools he applied to and was accepted to.
I’d consider honors college an added bonus to the overall university. IMO an already excellent university with a good honors college is superior to an average university with excellent honors college. It also depends on the subjects your S is interested in. If he is interested in engineering, for example, the majority of top schools are public simply because of the massive investments required and most families would favor public over private. Look at the strength of the overall programs in the subject he is interested in, and if he is undecided, pick places that are strong in multiple areas.
What many honors colleges offer is additional tutoring, special research opportunities, plus better dorm and class selection. They may have requirements like a senior or capstone honors project, or an additional minor. Most of the students are groomed for graduate school as well.
@JimmyWest, We toured both ASU and UA’s honors colleges. I will copy my trip report that I posted on the “Parents of the HS class of 2017” thread (which you may want to browse through). In general, S and we liked ASU over UA. I will also mention that S will be a computer science major.
Arizona State Univ (ASU) exceeded our expectations. We did the info session (standard but very nice facility), walking tour, and engineering tour on the Tempe campus. ASU has five separate campuses and upwards of 60k students between the campuses and online program. Even though the campus is right in the middle of the city of Tempe, we were surprised at how peaceful it felt. We heard birds almost everywhere. The campus was large enough to feel like a college environment but compact enough to be walkable. We did a quick look at the sports complex, but it wasn’t “pushed” like it is on many campuses. The engineering tour was well done by three students from different engineering disciplines. The biggest surprise and plus is the Barrett Honors College (only toured at Tempe campus). It is a separate mini campus adjacent to the main campus that houses about 5,000 students. It is a stand-alone facility with its own dorms, apartments, dining facility, classrooms, and honors-dedicated professors. Honors students must take 36 of their ~140 (160?) units as honors classes. They may take honors-specific classes or make any other class an honors class by working with the professor to make the class just a little more than it would be. But what tipped the hand in favor of ASU and Barrett was the honors facilities. The dorm rooms were just better than anything we have seen yet. The upper division (sophomore and up) apartments were better than the first and second (and probably third and fourth) apartments I lived in. They looked like a resort. There was a pool with palm trees that was Barrett students only access. The food at the honors dining hall was a little better than standard dining halls (we ate there. The food was pretty good and there was a gelato bar!). There also is a 4/1 program for any ASU student with a minimum 3.5 GPA where they can get a Bachelor/Masters in five years. If a student comes in with a lot of AP or DE credits they can get the masters in less time. Right now, I’d say that ASU is S’s top choice. It rose some above Cal Poly. And for those who achieve NMF status, the award is full tuition to the honors college.
Univ. of AZ. I will start with no matter how much I try to like Tucson, I just don’t. I always think that I will like Tucson better than Phoenix, and Phoenix keeps winning. The UA campus itself is like an oasis in a dusty area. The campus is green and lush, with an old southwest charm in the Old Main section of buildings. The admin session was relatively brief and to the point. It was pretty much in line with other State schools we have visited. One thing that was a little different was that they actually mentioned many items that were extra cost vs. part of the tuition and fees. A pass to the sports events (football) was additional and if you wanted to go to basketball that was more because the team is GOOD. There were other additional fees, but I didn’t write them all down. The tour was a long one - 90 minutes - and very good. We went through buildings to peek into some classrooms and computer centers and we walked through the library. It was nice to go into the buildings. The meal plan is interesting. At some point the students and admin decided that they didn’t want traditional dining halls, so most of the options that you use your dining dollars on seem to be fast-food like. I did see one all-you-can-eat cafe. I didn’t like the “bad food choice” dining so much. We also toured the honors college. After the awesome ASU honors college, the UA honors college was less impressive. The stats of the students were the highest of any school in AZ, but the honors housing was only OK and small. They guarantee freshmen honors housing, and then it sounds like you’re on your own. The honors dorms are 80% freshmen, so you would be a little out of place as an upperclassman. S would prefer to live on campus for at least two years, and UA doesn’t really support that. All and all, I think that UA is an option, but not at the top of the list. ASU, with their better NMF scholarship and totally awesome housing for the honors college is currently the front runner.
If he’s considering premed, then I think he should avoid all Calif schools as an OOS student. WAY TOO many premeds, weeding is harsh, there can be a gunner mentality.
Why UAz? I understand the Barrett interest of ASU. There’s warm and there’s HOT. I would be concerned about HOT.
Where else is he considering? Sounds like he wants warm climate and sports?
What are his stats?
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but I am not sure about overall quality of the programs when compared to the smaller class sizes at the private colleges.
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Be aware that at even private colleges, the 1XX and 2XX and premed prereqs can still be large classes. It doesnt’ matter if those privates are saying “average class size is 20” or whatever. Unless it’s a RARE private that has a “20 student per class” rule (or similar), the privates will also have large classes for the first year or two.
What is it about the “quality” that worries you?
At both privates and publics, much can depend on the actual prof…some are better teachers than others…and there will be good and bad at both types of schools. Some profs are great at research, but not-so-great at teaching.
Disclosure: My son did premed at a large university and was in the honors college, and he’s now a 4th year med student.
@mtrosemom – Great summary, thanks much for that. I think I need to book a weekend in Arizona for fall for check out Barrett. The residential/dining part of Barrett sounds appealing.
@mom2collegekids – Thanks for the comments. That is a very good point on weeding. I am quite negative on OOS UC, both for value received and for mentality. As to UAz, just wanted a sense of honors there. I figured if we’re visiting the state, should check out both. Others on the list are Univ. of San Diego, Loyola Marymount, Santa Clara, possibly others in California too, we need him to update his list. As to stats, 3.6 UW, 33 ACT. Mix of honors and AP, but I’m not sure where weighted would be. Quality issue, and I don’t think I put that very well, is based on my concern with very good honors courses along with middling non-honors, as compared to something more balanced at a smaller private school. Candidly, I’m not sure why I am concerned about this. When I went to college in 1980s I did honors in a large public U and thought the biggest benefit of the program was easing the transition to college in freshman/sophomore year, along with early registration and honors housing. I’d like that for my S (well, if he wants that – it’s truly up to him). Quality of instruction was not based solely on honors/non-honors then, and probably won’t be now.
Sorry for the rambling reply. I think the point on teacher quality is spot-on, and would apply regardless of school.