<p>The issue of taking more than four years to graduate from a state U has concerned me, and I've tried to do some research on it. The common data set is a valuable resource for apples-to-apples comparison. At UCSD 53% graduate in 4 years, 78% in 5. So it's a fairly small group which takes longer than that, and as the 5 year rate equals Stanford's 4 year rate, I'd say a financial comparison of 5 to 4 is probably more valid than 6 to 4. I also see a much more intense effort on the part of the state schools to help students stay on track to timely graduation. A little thought, a little effort, and a little diligence would seem to make it readily possible - as the 50+% 4 year graduation rates at Berkeley and UCSD suggest. I think we'll see a reversal of the declining graduation rates over the next few years, although a significant major change mid-stream is likely to continue to derail a significant number of students.<br>
[In a desperate attempt to return to the topic, he says:] There's no question that each school has a different "feel", but also that every major California university has some of every type of student. It's just a question of finding your soulmates. Some students thrive best in a big campus atmosphere, others in a more intimate academic setting. I think parents can be of some actual help in this area, since whether our kids like it or not, we can have some idea about this aspect of their personalities. Not every student wants to be on a first name basis with his professors.</p>
<p>What's interesting is that two professors (Katchadourainand Boli) did a study of Students at Stanford in the 1980s and one of the things they were trying to capture was this gunner, go-to pre-professional attitude. They wrote a book about it, and a follow-up. Of course, one of the things they shared was that they found students of all types on campus, not just the type who were career-minded. I'm sure that's true at many places, and I'm certain that hasn't changed all that much in the ensuing 20 years.</p>
<p>As others have suggested, maybe she got a lopsided impression of the place.</p>
<p>garland, thank you for your wise words about anecdotes. It's certainly not true that Michigan is easy to get into, even instate!</p>
<p>Hi Patient -- I do remember the large quantity of food they set out for us, though.</p>
<p>It didn't help that we felt the building was particularly ugly, while they went on about how beautiful it was. Some new center for mulitdisciplinary high tech research, with the space all broken up by large metal columns.</p>
<p>The previous Spring, Stanford held an event to attract applicants and called it "The Life of the Mind" which, of course, is the University of Chicago pitch. It was completely different in feel -- held in a brightly lit auditorium, with several very entertaining humanaities professors speaking, and then students who had done some very interesting things with small travel grants from Stanford. It was what interested our son in applying there in the first place. My sense of the EA admit event, in contrast, was that it aimed at a lot of kids in engineering or hoping for med school, whose parents might be wondering whether Stanford tuition was worth it compared to Berkeley.</p>
<p>On the other hand, there is an element to the reception that does reflect Stanford's student body, which -- judging by the popularity of majors -- is more techie than humanities driven.</p>
<p>Kluge -- I like your point about not every student wanting or needing to be on first name basis with professors. Similarly, not every student seeks small classes.</p>
<p>One major difference between Stanford and Berkeley that the posters haven't highlighted is Stanford's commitment to having all of its undergraduates living on campus all four years. It was an aspect of life at Stanford that I loved "back in the day", and I think it is a very different experience from living in an apartment one's last three years as an undergrad. In addition, everyone on campus at Stanford can't be a straightlaced pre-professional-- there's even a residence called "Enchanted Broccoli Forest", so I suspect that the love, peace and granola crowd is still alive and well there. Finally, there is also a lot to be said for going to school in a place where 50% of the people are not from California. My dearest friends were from New Orleans, Washington D.C. and New York City, and I saw those parts of the U.S. with them during summers. All of these intangibles have to go into the decision mix, too.</p>
<p>
[quote]
She's a runner and loves the outdoors.
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Of course, anywhere in Ca. will be great for this, but I was just thinking. </p>
<p>She needs to check out running to "the Dish" at Stanford. Seriously fun (is that an oxymoron?). Something we "all" did (not just track team, etc.) for our daily runs. Runs right from campus across the road onto "the Farm" (cows to the right of you, cows to the left of you) up a hill to the giant satellite dish. Lovely experience of, and views of, California's "golden hills." Energizing, a Stanford "must do" and a good example of the non-driven side of campus life.</p>
<p>Plenty of fine places to run around Berkeley also, but takes a bit longer to get away from the cars/bicycles/people. (Just trying to be balanced and avoid the hailstones and lightning bolts that are heading sac's way;)).</p>
<p>Kluge, at UCSD anyway, the number graduating in 4 years is going down, not up. Because of the budget cuts aections have been cut for many classes. It's just crazy and many have to take classes during the summer to graduate in 5 years. Believe me, we sat down with son and organized him to get out as fast as possible. But obsticle after obsticle comes up because of budget cuts right, left and center.</p>
<p>As a Stanford grad myself, with a son currently at Stanford, I think you can find whatever you are looking for at Stanford. There are some driven types there, but there are also plenty of laid back types. (even some who get a little TOO laid back and forget that they are there to study...) One reason my son chose Stanford over places like MIT or an Ivy WAS the more relaxed atmosphere. The academics are wonderful at Stanford. He has enjoyed overseas study very much and had some excellent professors. He also likes to spend free time playing with the Gaming Society, one of many clubs at Stanford. Students DO like to have fun, often in quite creative ways. And, of course, there is the famous Stanford "Marching" Band. I dare anyone to call THEM driven, except in a very eccentric sort of way perhaps!</p>
<p>I, too, suggest your daughter visit again, perhaps when there is NOT a regular presentation set up, but when she can wander the campus and talk with students.</p>
<p>I went to both Michigan (undergrad) and Stanford (grad) ... but this was back in the dark ages (Nixon was president). Based on my experience, I wouldn't say that one was more laid back than the other. (Although seeing one of my classmates at Stanford show up for a final exam with a quart of Budweiser was a bit shocking.) </p>
<p>I have been back to both campuses recently and Stanford's is clearly very beautiful .. and the weather ... well 'nuff said.</p>
<p>However, two things that Michigan has that Stanford can not come close to is school spirit (an important attribute as expressed in the OP) and a college town atmosphere. I went to the football games while at Stanford and was amazed by the poor student turnout and lack of enthusiasm - and this was shortly after they had been in the Rose Bowl game. The campus, while beautiful is isolated from Palo Alto. Once you are off the campus and in Palo Alto you no longer feel that you are in a college town. Ann Arbor is the opposite - the campus is integrated with the town such that when you are in the "town" you still feel that you are part of the campus.</p>
<p>fundingfather - love that screen name :)</p>
<p>fundingfather, if you were to choose an undergrad, you would choose Stanford, right?</p>
<p>As for the question of graduating in four years from a public school, we live in Michigan, and so we know a lot of kids who attended UMich. I'm not using hard facts, but every one of my son's friends (high school class of 99) who attended Umich graduated in four years. The two younger ones are there now. One is a junior and the other is in his second year, but has junior standing. Both plan to graduate in four years with absolutely no problem. So do all their friends who are there.</p>
<p>dstark - actually I would still choose Michigan. I loved the atmosphere of Michigan and still have extremely deep feelings about it that I don't think I ever could have about Stanford. Perhaps this may be attributable to the fact that one tends to feel the closest to their undergrad school than their grad school, but I really think that for me, the Michigan experience was hard to beat. However, I am glad that I went to Stanford for grad school. It presented an opportunity to live in another part of the country and experience a different scholastic and living environment. I really enjoyed my California/Stanford experience and would not trade it.</p>
<p>UC Santa Barbara.</p>
<p>Is Santa Barbara your serious opinion? I know nothing about Michigan and was just repeating what I was told by one individual (and he's a school snob if you ask me) but I do know sonething about UCSB. No way do I think someone who is Stanford material would be happy there. She would find few peers, just those won away from better schools with a Regents. UCB, maybe. UCSB, no way!!!</p>
<p>Dstark, she should pick the campus where she can see herself living for four years. She's going to be spending a lot of time on-campus and off. It will become her second home, and it won't take long before she will feel like it is her main residence. Basically, she wants to pick the place where she will fit in and be the happiest. </p>
<p>I'm a runner, too, and if she is athletic and outdoorsy, she won't appreciate the Michigan winters. I grew up in the Midwest (Nebraska --GO BIG RED), and it's awfully hard to run in snow drifts up to your eyeballs. At least, at Cal and at Stanford she can run during the cold, rainy winter months. It's actually my favorite kind of weather for running. </p>
<p>I'd say that from your description, she should really take another look at UC Santa Barbara. If she was interested in Stanford enough to apply EA, UCSB might be closer to what she is looking for. She should really trust her initial positive response. There is also a lot to be said for going in as a Regent's Scholar. </p>
<p>Being a student at Cal is kind of like going to work every day. As much as I love that campus now, I do remember that it could be very isolating. I would advise your friend to make a second visit to both campuses during Spring Quarter (Cal and UCSB), and then, I think she'll have an easier time deciding.</p>
<p>Will she also be a Regents Scholar at Cal? Because that would give her: guarantee of four years of housing, a faculty advisor, and a very active group of current scholars and alumni who do everything from sponor an ultimate frisbee team to host Salsa dancing nights. It would not give her priority for getting into classes, however, as it does on some other campus.</p>
<p>Sac, I doubt it.</p>
<p>Dstark, I don't have much of an opinion other that there are pros and cons for each of the choices. But one comment, remembering back to our college visits, was that neither of us (D or me) was wowed by Stanford. Maybe the expectations were too high but after seeing G'town, H, Y, and then Smith, etc., we were expecting a lot that we didn't get. Thinking back, there was a lot of that "pre-professional" feeling about the students and a close friend of TheMom's opines that she'd go back to Stanford for grad school, not for undergrad. </p>
<p>Between the options given, I don't see a perfect fit. I think how you feel in campus with the other students is important; also, a Regents could be a tipping point.</p>
<p>TheDad, This may be off topic, but perhaps your lack of being "wowed" by Stanford was due to you being Californians, so Stanford did not seem as "exotic" to you as the East Coast schools (obviously, this is aside from the pre-professionalism or lack of pre-professionalism of the students on the various campuses). My son and I (East Coast people) had a "wow" reaction to Stanford which we didn't experience at many of the well-known Eastern colleges. I think much of our impression came from the very different (to us) architecture, climate, and terrain.</p>
<p>Thedad, I think many of us tell our kids that going away to college will be a life changing experience. Sometimes places are so built up that when a student gets there, he/she thinks, "Wait a second. This place is a school. I thought it was something else".</p>