Contemplating Law School

Graduate School Law School
1

Hello, College Confidential!

I am going to be a third-year at The Ohio State University this Autumn. I am majoring in Food, Agricultural, and Biological Engineering. I’m minoring in German. Depending on whether I graduate in 5 or 4.5 years, I will have either a major or minor in Philosophy, respectively; 5 years being the major and 4.5 being the minor.

Before I began to express interest in law school, specifically, in civil rights/social justice-related law fields, I expressed interest in Philosophy, which was sparked by an Ethics class I took last semester and an Aesthetic Theory class I’m currently taking. My sister, who graduated from Vanderbilt’s law school, recommended that I try and take some philosophy courses before taking the LSAT when I asked her for advice on law school admissions. So, seeing that I had desire to study philosophy and desire to attempt to attend law school, this seemed like a win-win situation.

So, I have a few questions that my sister and my college didn’t answer all too clearly to me.

(1) Concerning the LSAT and GPA numbers:
I understand that the LSAT and GPA are the two major factors in getting admitted to law school, with involvement taking a backseat to these decisions. I’ve taken about 10 practice LSATs from years ranging from 2007-2013 and my averaged score between the 10 has been 170.5, so either 170 or 171 if you round down or up, respectively. I understand that this is a pretty good LSAT score (yay!), but is not necessarily an accurate indicator of how I will perform on the LSAT, even though I treated each attempt as if it were a real LSAT test. Based on this, I’m going to assume that I will, at some point (I intend to take the LSAT a few times prior to applying to make sure I have a decent score), have a strong LSAT score. However, the downfall is with my GPA. Engineering at OSU is a fairly difficult field of study. I am expecting to have a GPA between 3.2 (lowest) and 3.4 (highest) by the time I apply to law school. The highest GPA I could have upon graduating, though, is a 3.5. If I applied with a GPA between 3.2-3.4 and an LSAT score in the 165-170 (or higher) ranger, do I stand a chance of getting into reputable law schools?

(2) I’m also saturated with involvement. I recognize that this will take a backseat, but I am a President of an organization I founded, I’m a mentor for another organization, I’m an Undergraduate Research Asst. to my Department Head/Advisor (for engineering), I’m on a logistics committee for another organization, and I’m employed at the university as a student assistant for tech support. I can also list 5 Professors, universities employees, and Advisors that would be happy to write me letters of recommendation, and I trust that they’d write ones that would benefit me. How small of an impact would you guys expect this to have in admissions?

(3) I know that law school is expensive. In fact, if I don’t get some kind of scholarships, whether it be internal or external, I don’t think I’ll be able to afford it. Do law schools decide who gets scholarships based solely on LSAT scores, LSAT + GPA scores, or a conglomeration of all parts of the application?

(4) Would you guys expect a Philosophy major or minor to be more supportive to my law school applications? If I do the major, I’d graduate in Spring of 2018 and would probably take the LSAT in June of 2017. If I do the minor, I’d graduate in Autumn 2017, but I’m not sure when I’d take the LSAT or apply to law school in this case.

(5) If I graduate in 4.5 years (Autumn 2017), when should I take the LSAT and when should I apply to law school?

(6) Last question – s/o if you’ve answered all of these or some of these so far because I truly appreciate it – what law schools do you guys recommend applying to/looking into given my credentials and my interest in civil rights/social justice-related fields of law?

Again, to re-iterate myself, I appreciate any and all help you guys can give me! Thanks in advance.

2

I’ll try and provide some brief answers in the order that you have listed-above:

One, I would preview top-law-schools.com They have a very serious overview and stats on your chance of admission, per the school, and your respective GPA and LSAT score—for instance, here is overlay for Notre Dame–see: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/stats.php?school=notre-dame But, in short, your GPA will effect your opportunities.

Two, its great to be involved, and it’s certainly a positive narrative towards your application, but unless you brokered peace in the Sudan, it will be subordinate to your grades and LSAT score.

Three, there are some scholarships, but generally speaking most people pay the full retail rack price. It is one of the reasons there are so many law schools, e.g. the business model is very sound. Low overhead, minimal physical structures, and warrants and assurances via the various student loans that the law school gets paid first. Places like YLS do have scholarships, as they have large endowments (YLS has an unheard of endowment, exclusive to the law school, in excess of a billion dollars, supporting just a little over 600 students). Your best bet is a public service loan forgiveness program, many schools participate, but be forewarned it can be competitive.

Four, my experience as both a student and an instructor/lecturer in law school, is that by and large, the study of philosophy lends well to the study of law.

Fifth, I would personally have a completed LSAT by the fall of 2017, and then, make application the following spring.

Sixth, he is a link, to some highlighted schools for public interest and social justice, see: http://www.nationaljurist.com/content/best-public-interest-law-schools

Top-law-schools, has a plethora of information, almost to a level of mind numbing minutia…best!

3

^^^small nit: Harvard, Yale and Stanford do NOT offer scholarships, only need-based aid.

Most all other law schools right now are offering big time scholarships for those with numbers (GPA+LSAT) that they need. Only those with numbers below median pay sticker – and no one should do that, unless attending the instate Uni on the cheap.

To the OP, the higher the LSAT the more money you may receive. Get that GPA up by taking courses in which you can receive an A. Minors have no value to law schools, so unless you are earning A’s…

4

Hmmn, my phrasing may have been a little loose and I get your point, but I still stand by my original comment, about the availability of scholarships at YLS, see: http://www.law.yale.edu/admissions/minorityscholarships.htm or http://www.law.yale.edu/admissions/SpecialScholarships.htm or the exact wording from Harvard–All financial aid awards are primarily based on the applicant’s demonstrated financial need. Financial aid is offered in the form of both grants (scholarships) and loans.

5

One quick comment…you should be VERY VERY clear with yourself ahead of time under what financial situations you will or will not attend and what your backup plan is. Are you realistically going to forego loans if you get into a good school?

There are other threads in the law school forum you might want to browse but my advice, as a practicing lawyer of 18 years and one who mentors students constantly, is do NOT going deep into debt thinking that you will make enough to cover it. And under no circumstances other than a full scholarship would I endorse going to a for profit school.

6

sorry, boolah, your point maybe technically correct, but for the purposes of this discussion it is misleading at best.

In the first place, that link you provided lists a bunch of ‘schoalrships’ for $1k, which barely covers airfare to New Haven.

Second, and more importantly, Yale is clear:

in other words, those scholarships that you list are just named-grants from which Yale provides need-based aid.

To the applicant, if there is no need, there is no scholarship/grant. Period. And if one does have need, the applicant doesn’t care one bit what it is called, as long as it does not have to be paid back.

7

Then you just defined what Harvard calls a grant–is indeed a “scholarship”–kudos, well stated.

8

(1) Take a Kaplan or other test-prep class and get your LSAT score up even more, to offset your GPA (which isn’t bad; it’s just not within a comfortable top-10 school range).

(2) Ditch the outside activities and study more–grades are more important than clubs. Keep just the clubs/organizations that will result in amazing letters of recommendation.

(4) Doesn’t matter

(6) NYU

9

And Mr. Blue, I counted no fewer the 16 scholarships for diversity of at least 5,000, more than a half dozen over 10,000, and a couple over 25k…all the way up to 50k.

10

if its ok with you, we’ll just have to agree to disagree. IMO, when people think of ‘scholarship’, they think of some sort of merit, which is not what need-based aid is…

Regardless, with that GPA, absent a hook, the OP has no shot at HYS anyway, so our good-natured bantering is moot.

11

Alas, all is peaceful and well in the land of bantering.

12

Will the fact that I’m an engineering student at what’s considered to be a difficult engineering impact how law schools view my GPA or will law schools simply look at the numbers?

I appreciate everyone’s help! This has been incredibly informative. I’ll be sure to cut back on extraneous commitment and focus on grades so that I can get my GPA up as much as possible.

To highlight financial points: if I get into a program which has a high college-to-job rate (more students graduating with employment), I’ll be a bit more lenient on finances; that is, more willing than not willing to take out loans. I’ll strive to get the highest LSAT score possible such that my chances at getting aid are as high as possible. However, if I see that the ends won’t justify the means, I’ll more than likely just go to graduate school for engineering, given that many programs cover tuition costs and some, OSU included, will pay a decent salary to graduate students who work as GTAs. I don’t want to say it’s all about the money, but… it kind of is.

Thanks again, guys!

13

Be aware that those “job numbers” are often padded. They may include people the school hires on, or work part time, or have a job as a bailiff making $20k .