Convince me to go to Berkeley

robotFOOD · April 14, 2006, 2:46am

I'm a student from Alaska choosing between Berkeley, Cornell, Columbia, and Penn. Berkeley is #2 for chemE, which is my prospective major. I have visited Penn and will visit Columbia next week. I won't get a chance to visit Berkeley so I'm relying on word of mouth, friends, and websites.

Is engineering super intense? Will I have time to have fun like I would at a school like Penn?

Allorion · April 14, 2006, 3:18am

You would have fun. Don't sink too far into the hype that Berkeley is intensely competitive and the Ivys are not. You'll have to work, and work hard at any of these schools. Berkeley is, however, less forgiving of mistakes than many Ivys... but the Ivys you have to choose from are the least forgiving out of them, so it won't be that huge a difference.

It is a different atmosphere since Berkeley is intensely cultural. I personally believe the campus on Berkeley is the most beautiful out of the campuses you have listed (though Columbia, at last look, was certainly not a strain on the eyes, though with a different... taste... to it).

I'm not sure how warm a welcome this thread will recieve here though, after multiple previous posters also putting up "convince me" threads.

whatiscollege · April 14, 2006, 3:23am

why should anybody convince you to go? it's your choice.

quirkily · April 14, 2006, 4:27am

Seriously though. Why would we convince you, and why should we?

CalX · April 14, 2006, 5:27am

robot, I am a Cal engineering alum.

Penn's campus is not very nice compared to Berkeley's. The atmosphere at Penn (which i've visited 3 times, my girlfriend's sister just graduated last year and a good friend did his MBA there) is indeed fun, with a big greek scene and lots of parties, but it's a bit too much of an Abercrombie catalogue scene. It's more structured, but there isn't much variety. Even my GF's sis, who is really into that and is a bit spoiled, thought is was a bit too high-end cookie cutter plain at times. She tought about transferring to Cal a couple of times (she was recruited as an athlete at both schools). But she did very much like her Penn experience overall.

Cal Engineering is pretty intense, but not cutthroat. Chem E is OK there, not too big a dept. Mostly, it's the material itself that will be the main challenge, since Cal is clearly a better engineering school that all those other schools (though the gap is not that big with Cornell.) The profs are world-class and a bit hardass, they expect a lot out of their students. You will have an extremely solid technical base to build upon. You will study a little harder, but will also have plenty of time to enjoy your college career as well, tons actually if you're not aiming for an A avg. There is a pretty decent party scene on campus, in many flavors and varieties, and the area is just gorgeous, with the best of all worlds (city life, outdoors, campus scene).

Cornell and Columbia are both extreme on the urban/rural scale. Cal and Penn are more balanced there, campus and city. But Penn's campus and Philly environment aren't as attractive. Cal of course has much better weather than any of the others.

Our sports teams are starting to kick ass, football games are averaging 65K/game, there are trips to LA and stanford for football, bowl games and NCAA tourneys in spring. But Ivy sports are fun too, in a mellower way.

The food is fantastic both at Cal and Columbia. It's actually better at Cal for the low end though, and fresher too (produce, seafood etc). New York rocks, but it eats up a little bit the campus atmosphere at Columbia. IMO though, NYC is better enjoyed in your early to mid 20s than in your teens.

Hope this helped, good luck.

Here's a little Cal campus tour for you:

robotFOOD · April 14, 2006, 11:34am

CalX,

Thank you so much for your deep insight. I will definitely take these factors into consideration. Also, I completely agree with your description of Penn and its environment...

It's sounding like Berkeley has most of the right things for me...

How is flexibility at Berkeley though? I'm turned off by the fact that we have to have a chosen major prior to entering the school. What if I change my mind? Will that cause a problem?

unlimitedx · April 14, 2006, 1:21pm

Depends on what major you want to change to. If you want to change transfer into the College of Engineering, that will be very difficult. If you choose to change into impacted L&S majors, that will be difficult as well.

mjoe · April 14, 2006, 4:48pm

How much prestige is associated with an Engineering degree from Cal?
I do understand that the education itself is likely very good.

However, the SAT range of the student body is relatively low(avg around 1350). Thus, would a Cal degree be better for applying to grad school than a degree from a small private school that is more difficult to get into (sat avg 1460), but has a lower ranked engineering school?

CalX · April 14, 2006, 4:51pm

Glad I could help, robot. Berkeley is a very exceptional place, one whose downsides tend to be overblown and whose amazing attributes tend to be lost in things like the bogus USNWR poll. I've been to over 30 campuses and got a feel for what it's like to go elsewhere, nothing else really compares. I get goosebumps just looking at these pictures (a lot of them are just OK, it's hard to convey the real feel and liveliness of campus through a pageful from Goolge Images...) I'm just so glad I went there, and really happy to help get the word out.

You'll need to keep your grades way up if you want to transfer to EE or bus ad. Other than these heavily solicited majors, changing majors is not a big deal.

PS Robot, it strikes me that any person with capitalized FOOD in his handle would be very happy in Berkeley!

Go Bears.

CalX · April 14, 2006, 5:07pm

mjoe, keep in mind that Cal doesn't try to maximize its accepts' SATs, it turns away thousands of applicants with near-perfect test scores. As well, the test profile of the Cal engineering accepts is signficantly higher than that of the rest of the accepts, everyone has a near-perfect math score at least.

Cal engineering is very much respected by graduate schools, they know that Cal engineers have a great technical base and a rigorous background and they calibrate the GPAs accordingly. I'm not sure how much of a difference there is with lower-ranked engineering depts from top small schools. I think you should base your decision a lot more on how much you like Cal vs the rest than on this criterion.

sakky · April 14, 2006, 6:36pm

[quote]
As well, the test profile of the Cal engineering accepts is signficantly higher than that of the rest of the accepts, everyone has a near-perfect math score at least.

[/quote]

At the College of Engineering, this is true.

But ChemE is not in the CoE. It is in the College of Chemistry. I believe that the CoC stats are only slightly better than the L&S stats.

sakky · April 14, 2006, 6:41pm

[quote]
Other than these heavily solicited majors, changing majors is not a big deal.

[/quote]

Well, I don't know about that. The College of Chemistry only has 2 majors - ChemE and Chemistry. So unless you just want to switch to Chemistry, then switching majors requires switching to a different Berkeley college. That is FAR from automatic. Basically, you need to have good grades (i.e. a 3.0). And as I think all engineers know, especially the ChemE's, a lot of engineering students get less than a 3.0. A significant fraction get far far less than a 3.0.

"Grade Point Average is also a significant consideration for admission to the College. Students who meet all other criteria and have a 3.0 or higher GPA are more likely to be approved."

<a href="http://ls-advise.berkeley.edu/faq/chgclg.html%5B/url%5D">http://ls-advise.berkeley.edu/faq/chgclg.html</a>

abcdefgclass2006 · April 14, 2006, 7:49pm

sakky is wrong....College of Chemistry has 3 majors and one more is going to be added soon. They are: ChemE, Chemistry, Chemical Biology, and in the future, Materials Chemistry.

Also, keep in mind that many many under-achieving CofC students transfer out of the CofC after a couple semesters (usually into L&S) and a lot of dedicated L&S/engineering students transfer into CofC...as a result, the stats/accomplishments for upperclassmen in the college of chemistry are very impressive.

I was in L&S and CofC, and I have to admit, my CofC peers seem to "float" above my L&S peers in terms of general aptitude/intelligence.

DRab · April 14, 2006, 9:24pm

Maybe you're in the wrong major, abcdefgclass2006.

sakky · April 14, 2006, 10:51pm

[quote]
sakky is wrong....College of Chemistry has 3 majors and one more is going to be added soon. They are: ChemE, Chemistry, Chemical Biology, and in the future, Materials Chemistry

[/quote]

Allright fine, 3 majors (and to be 4). Used to be 2 back in the old days. But they are all very similar majors. It's not like Chemical Biology is going to be a 180-degree difference from Chemistry or even Chemical Engienering, especially in the lower-division work.

The point is, if you find out that you just don't like chemistry at all, you now have to switch colleges.

In fact, the notion that somebody would try to come back by saying that the CoC doesn't have 2 majors, it actually has 3, is a tacit admission that the CoC doesn't have a lot of majors to choose from. IT's like me saying that a guy got a D in a class, and then the guy defending himself by saying that that's wrong, that he actually got a D+. There's not exactly a lot of difference between a D and a D+, just like there's not a lot of difference between having 2 majors and 3.

[quote]
many many under-achieving CofC students transfer out of the CofC after a couple semesters (usually into L&S)

[/quote]

Back in the old days, this used to happen a lot. But now, the switch is GPA-dependent. In ChemE, believe me, there are a LOT of students who get very bad GPA's, especially during the weeders.

robotFOOD · April 15, 2006, 3:17am

This is all starting to sound scary for a guy like me... I'm not an amazing student... is Berkeley that rigorous? I'd like to be able to have a social life.

DRab · April 15, 2006, 3:21am

Well, for the engineers, they say school, work, social life, pick two, but generally speaking, as long as you don't plan on getting a 4.0, you can have a fine social life. You just have to work with time mangement, a big deal in college, and perhaps work hard/play however you so choose.

Allorion · April 15, 2006, 3:22am

You can have plenty a social life. Think about it this way, you have to do a heck of a lot more work per class... but you have less classes than you do now, and the classes usually aren't daily.

Berkeley is merely less forgiving. Don't think for a second, though, that Cornell is forgiving though. Also, Columbia and Penn aren't exactly your classic hand-holders, either.
If you're that concerned, Columbia and Penn are better choices. But you're going to work harder than you've ever worked in those schools as well anyway. Just, perhaps, you have a thin dropnet beneath you where you wouldn't have even that at Berkeley or Cornell.

It depends on your preferences, but I said it before--in your choices, you don't have any nonrigorous schools (in terms of being forgiving and guiding you through each step of the way).

CalX · April 15, 2006, 4:53am

If you got into Cal from out of state, you'll do just fine there. There is a lot of academic bravado around Cal, but it's not that bad, the suicide rate is now under 10%. ; )

cmaher · April 15, 2006, 5:25am

With any other top private schools I would choose those, but the other private schools you are considering come off as really boring to me, Cornell and Penn especially (sides Wharton), so choose Berkeley because it is the best academically for engineering.

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