Convince my parents that guaranteed med school programs are overrated (to them at least)

Pre-Med & Medical School Multiple Degree Programs
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First off, I want to say that I KNOW these programs (combined undergrad/med school programs) are great, and that if I can get into one, it would definitely be worth considering. However, my parents believe that they are the best thing in the world. They think that, if I get into one, I should instantly just forget about going anywhere else and join that program. While I love the idea of getting into one of these programs and joining it, I believe that, even if i did make it in, my other options would still be viable options. Basically, here is the list of arguments that my parents and i have used about this-

Reason why i SHOULD join these programs if I get in

  • I know that I want to go to med school for sure
  • Since the ultimate goal of my undergrad is to get into med school, I shouldn’t even consider turning this down.
  • Med school acceptance rates are super low, and even lower for asians (which I am)
  • (For the specific programs we were discussing) the med schools are close to us (my parents) so we can help you once you are in it

Reasons why i SHOULD NOT join these programs if i get in

  • I am choosing my undergrad and med school (7/8 years of my life) when I am only 18.
  • (Again, for the specific programs) The required GPA and MCAT score to stay in the program are high enough that, even if i was not in the program, I would probably be able to make it into med school anyway (assuming ECs and experience and all is good too)
  • If I did not make the GPA or MCAT score to stay in the program, and I did not make it into med school, then a degree for the lower tier university (where these specific programs are at) would be much less valuable than a degree from the colleges i would go to if i did not get into the program
  • While I am aware that it is extremely hard to make it into med school, I definitely have the motivation and determination to keep up good grades and scores while in undergrad (my parents are not really worried about this not happening either-- i am very self-motivated)
  • I would not be as happy at the colleges with these programs as I would be at the colleges without it
  • The colleges that I am considering without the programs- UNC, UMD, and PITT- are all really good colleges for pre med students and a large percentage of the pre med kids at the schools make it into med school.

I am probably leaving off a few things from both sides of the argument but those are the things that I remember. Also note that, if i didn’t go to the special program, I would still only go to the schools that offer me AT LEAST full tuition, so it wouldn’t be too expensive anyway.

I would like to reiterate that I would seriously consider these programs if i got in. However, I still want to be able to have a choice between other colleges and these programs if i did make it, and right now my parents would not be very supportive of that.

Feel free to disagree with anything I noted and to add anything to EITHER side of the argument. More that proving my parents wrong, I want to make sure that I know what I am talking about and that I am properly informed.

Most of all, do you think that my parents or I are undervaluing or overvaluing these programs?

Sorry for the long post, but it is important that I can make an informed decision on this kind of thing and I want to try and get as much advice as possible. Thanks to everyone in advance.

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deleted. sent you a PM instead

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@Copperrrrrrrrrrr,

I think it really depends which BS/MD program you are talking about specifically. That will determine whether it’s worth it. Some of the BS/MD programs have excellent undergrads: Northwestern, Brown, Pitt, Wash U, etc., some don’t. Some BS/MD programs have excellent med schools with good reputations: Northwestern, Brown, Pitt, Wash U, Jefferson, Case, UT-Southwestern, Baylor College of Medicine, UCSD, etc., some don’t.

But no, not all BS/MD programs are good, and not all are worth it, especially if you’re considering certain specialties that aren’t primary care. Which in all honesty, the way primary care is headed, you’d be better off in either a mid-level role where you’ll actually get to see patients, or another more satisfying job entirely. In the normal application process, you have a lot more leverage in terms of financial aid than you do as a BS/MD student.

This is a really good question by the way, so I think it’s great you posted it and looking at it from all angles.

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Most physicians I know are glad for any education they took part in aside from the medical portion. Shortening your term and studying only medicine such as you see in these combined programs makes very one-dimensional practitioners.

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Thank you guys

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Sometimes, people who don’t know what it is like to have a physician in the family, aside from the perceived prestige it has offered in the past, might be in a hurry to get to the “knowing” as opposed to having four more years of uncertainty.

However, as I observed above, this has no real value for the poor student except to steal more good and memorable time from their young lives.

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Yeah, i guess. thanks

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There is no real advantage for top students as most likely they’ll get in medical school anyways. I would rather send them to great programs in top colleges to grow intellectually and academically. If they have good number of AP/IB credits then they can finish undergrad in three years anyways. My niece dropped out of her UTD/UTSW program because she felt that it was very trade school like setup. She transferred to Yale, had great time with a flexible schedule and managed to get into JH’s med school. She thinks that BS-MD programs are better for mediocre students who may not find another opportunity to get into a medical school.

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While I think it’s fantastic, @WorryHurry411, that your niece got into Johns Hopkins medical school after transferring to Yale from the UTD/UTSW program, I think your daughter is a very huge exception to the rule. Most premed students, even with the best of grades and great MCAT scores, will not be gaining acceptance into a top-tier medical school, which is what Hopkins is. They are much more likely at best to get into a very strong middle-tier med school, which very well may be their state public medical school - as there are some very highly ranked and reputable public medical schools.

UT Southwestern is a very strong medical school, currently ranked at #25 for Research (#17 in Primary Care), and is also publically funded, as well, so students who are in-state (and even out-of-state) who attend, get a very good deal on tuition and fees, since the state subsidizes their med schools very well.

So your niece getting into the UTD-UTSW PACT program, was a very good deal, although you may be correct, that you don’t get enough flexibility in the undergraduate curriculum in the program since it’s a 7 year BA/MD program: http://www.utsouthwestern.edu/edumedia/edufiles/medical_school/academics/combined_degrees_distinctions/ut-pact-course-plan.pdf, and students in the program are still required to score a minimum score on the MCAT. Do you know whether students in the UTD-UTSW PACT program have the option of increasing the undergraduate part to a full 4 years?: http://www.utdallas.edu/pre-health/ut-pact

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@Roentgen ,
No, UT-PACT does not offer the option to stretch the undergrad to 4 years.

@WorryHurry411 ,
Do you know if your neice was part of the UT-PACT program? Asking because the program is just 3 years old and the first batch of students just completed their undergrad and are entering med school now. AFAIK, no one from that batch dropped off the program after enrolling. So, I’m guessing your neice must have rejected the offer to join the program, and then completed her undergrad at Yale in just 3 years and been admitted to JHU med school. That’s a phenomenal achievement and definitely validates her decision to forego the program.

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I am so glad that my son wasn’t in a BS/MD program. He got to enjoy his undergrad. lol

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Wondering the same thing. It is not possible for her to transfer to Yale, complete the degree and also get into med school when the first batch is just moving on after 3 years.

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Hello
I needed to throw a few words in regard to the nice high school student asking about the bs ms program and why take or accept if one gets in…

As a professor who has a lab with many post Bach studentsnow taking master or extra courses and redoing mcats and trying to get into medical schools
They would have loved to have this opportunity …
They are stressed out and trying so hard
There is no guarantee and one bad test day ( bad final. Bad mcat ) can really throw you off your mark.

Sorry
I am trying to say it may be presumptuous to say I will do this or that when I am in college.
I also went to six year program and saw many good people in regular premed in college burn out in blaZe of glory

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Thanks for the advise everyone! I’ll definitely take all of that into consideration.

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@@bearchichi, are you a PhD professor or are you a former 6 year BS/MD student? I couldn’t tell based on your post. If so, which 6 year program did you attend? I’m assuming in your post you were referring to BS-MD programs, not BS/MS programs, which was probably a typo on your part.

Just because there are students doing a postbacc/masters program, or retaking MCATs trying to get into med school doesn’t mean everyone will do that. Every year students do 4 years of college and head right to med school right after or finish college and apply during their gap year to get into med school that following fall. Realize also that non-traditionals going back for a career change also do postbacc/SMPs. You can also retake the MCAT as many students do after certain test prep. It’s not a one time shot type of thing.

The truth is that if you’re burning out or are very stressed out in college in normal premed sciences courses, you will definitely burn out in medical school courses. Premed courses aren’t “special” - Dentistry, Pharmacy also do the same exact requirements of General Biology, General Chemistry, Organic Chemistry, General Physics, etc. Many students in high school applying to BS/MD programs have taken AP Biology, AP Chemistry, AP Physics which covers 3 out of the 4 requirements as well. Students should make decisions based in reality and fact, not based on fearmongering.

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@Copperrrrrrrrrrr

As a practicing physician with our son in a 7 year combined BS/MD program, I see both pro and con of combined programs.

For the PRO:

Since many students in combined programs are able to get credit for their AP classes, such as Biology, Chemistry, Physics, Calculus and so on, they have more “free” time to pursue such classes as Poetry, Philosophy, Psychology, Medicine and Sociology and Philosophy of Science. These are some of actual courses that our son will be taking first two years in the BS/MD program.

Since there is less pressure to maintain “high” GPA (3.5 in most programs), one can actively engage in campus life. In our son’s case, he has joined an athletic team, which would have been difficult through the “regular” route since being in a sport team is very time consuming.

As an Asian "pre-med’, your chance of being accepted into an allopathic medical school in U.S. is about 41.3 % with GPA of 3.5 and MCAT of 32. Some of BS/MD programs does not even require MCAT.

For the CON:

Less “prestigious” colleges associated with some of these programs.
What if… I could have gotten into better medical school through the regular route. However, many students drop out of “pre-med” track even in highly ranked colleges. Most science courses do not give out more than 20 % A’s. I personally know a Harvard graduate who went to one of Caribbean medical schools.

But… your choice of colleges are excellent with U Pitt, UNC and UMD. You have potential to become a BIG fish with a star in those schools with continued motivation. I would have been less enthusiastic about the regular route if you have selected such schools as U of Chicago or Duke as your undergraduate college.

Final DECISION:

For you… I would apply to both regular and combined programs. Also remember that you always have an option of transferring out of the program or transfer out of school entirely. The final decision is up to YOU. Good Luck!!!

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@upstream Thank you so much! that was really helpful

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@upstream, several things that I think need to be corrected. I’m not in anyway trying to diminish you or your son’s experience, but I do think with some of the things you said, there is more than meets the eye and anyone reading who is new to this, should get the full picture.

  • not all BS/MD programs accept AP test credit when it comes to undergraduate requirements for their degree and expect you to take those courses in-house. If they do accept the AP credit, often times the student is expected to replace it with an upper level science course, which tends to be harder than the introductory science course you AP'ed out of. So in those cases, you'd be better off just taking the introductory course over again, which would obviously be easier since you're covering the same material, often times the same textbook used in the high school course.
  • very few BS/MD programs don't expect you to take the MCAT at all. More and more are requiring the MCAT to be taken in order to promote in the program and to achieve a certain set score or score at least at the average of the incoming matriculating med school class. Rice/Baylor, for example, was a program that never required the MCAT, but since Fall 2014, now requires the MCAT to be taken: http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/rice-university/1564038-rice-baylor-2018-p1.html
  • I guarantee you there are many premeds who actively engage in campus life, including sports, whether it's because they want to, or for CV padding purposes for med school apps. No premed can get into medical school with only stellar MCATs and GPA. Medical school admissions is much more holistically based, especially now. Being premed or not, usually doesn't influence campus involvement as much, and I've seen the opposite with BS/MD students who are less involved in campus activities, due to no perceived need by the student.
  • Your statistic quote isn't exactly correct: https://www.aamc.org/download/321516/data/factstable25-3.pdf; The 41.3% statistic is for a cumulative GPA (so not just sciences) of 3.40-3.59 (which is a big range in terms of grade points) and a 30-32 MCAT (also a big range). So if we take the lower end of the GPA scale -- 3.4 is quite low for application to any medical school on average, regardless of race.
  • realize a lot of people don't necessarily "drop out" of premed, but there is also a heavy change in career plans due to shadowing of the actual career and seeing what it is like and what it encompasses on a day-to-day basis. Hence students can shift to other health care fields that have the same exact requirements as med schools do -- Dentistry, Optometry, Pharmacy, or go into allied health care fields - Nursing, NP, PA, PT, etc. So it isn't as much the "premed" route that is a direct influence. So many students "declare" themselves "premed" anyways, there is a lot of wheat with the chaff, and often it means nothing as anyone can do it since a lot of the health science professional schools have the same science requirements.
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@Roentgen @Copperrrrrrrrrrr

Thanks for your input.

This time I going to stick to only factual information.
Even though many combined programs do require minimum MCAT scores, there are still many combined programs that do not require minimum MCAT scores:

GWU, Northwestern, UMKC, NJMS with many affiliated colleges, Albany with RPI/Siena/Union, Sophie Davis, Rochester, Case Western, Brown, East Carolina U,Toledo, The Commonwealth MC, U of Pitt, Virginia Commonwealth, U of Texas SWMC.

Some programs have very low minimum MCAT scores:

NEOMU 24, U of Texas (Galveston) 24, Ponce 20, Meharry 24, Wayne State with Northern Michigan U 24, Texas A & M 25, Nebraska 24, New Mexico 22, Howard 24.

Please check the latest/updated MCAT requirements directly from these programs.

In terms of statistics, according to Association of American Medical Colleges 2014 average gpa and MCAT scores of Asian matriculants were 3.73 and 32.8, which are higher than minimum requirement to advance to medical schools in most of combined programs.

I just want to stress that these combined programs are very diverse, and I can’t stress the importance of teasing out these differences when one is applying to these programs.

Good luck everyone!!