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According to US NEWS, Swarthmore had a -6% "underperformance" in graduation rate which means its actual grad rate was 6% lower than the US NEWS predicted grad rate.
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<p>But, a "predicted" graduation rate is an arbitrary bogus number. Who gives a flip what USNEWS predicts for a graduation rate? That's like docking points from a Ferrari because it only has a top speed of 154 mph when Car & Driver "predicts" that a Ferrari should have a top speed of 160 mph.</p>
<p>Look at this way. Of the entire USNEWS database of hundreds and hundreds national universities and LACs, there are only 2 LACs and 9 universities with a higher graduation rate than Swarthmore's 92%.</p>
<p>Yet, we should say that Swarthmore's graduation rate is "poor" because it's less than USNEWS predicts it too be? It's like Caltech having a poor graduation rate because it's frickin' hard and not everybody can handle it. Would Caltech be a "better" school if they made it a lot easier and bumped up their graduation rate?</p>
<p>"Would Caltech be a "better" school if they made it a lot easier and bumped up their graduation rate?"</p>
<p>Yes it would be...according to the US News. Tough schools are continually punished by the US News for being tough. Schools like MIT, Cal Tech, or Cornell would have a better showing in categories like graduation rate, freshman retention rate, or even acceptance rate (because more people would apply) if they simply become less rigorous.</p>
<p>norcalguy, the sad truth though is that graduation rate is a decent way to distinguish schools at the lower ranges.</p>
<p>The right way to respond to a negative differential between predicted and actual grad rates, is to acknowledge that the school is harder than the competition. I have read that Swarthmore is one of the hardest schools to score 'A's in, though I have also heard the same about Cornell.</p>
<p>To the layperson, Cornell exists. To the layperson, Swarthmore is a question mark. To those in the know, both are amazing schools. As many people have said, there are so many differences between the schools that prestige is a non-issue.</p>
<p>if you really want to attend one of these two schools, i strongly, strongly recommend you visit both schools in the fall when there are students on campus. you can't base your decision on other people's opinions, especially when your needs are so vague. each person here has their own opinions and they may not correlate with yours. visit the schools and sit in on some lectures and that will definitely help your decision.</p>
<p>if you know you want to go into academia in the humanities or social sciences, i don't think there are few schools in the country that can stack up to swarthmore</p>
<p>but as others have pointed out, it's all relative and there are many factors to consider</p>
<p>ashernm, I agree. The problem is that the US News does not attempt to correct for grade inflation/deflation. Consequently, schools that have few requirements and hand out lots of A's are going to have high graduation rates and score high in the rankings.</p>
<p>Graduation rates are closely related to the average SAT scores. Average SAT scores and high school rank/high school gpa are the top pre-admission predictors of graduation rate. After admission, academic performance becomes the best predictor of graduation rate. Colleges with a high proportion of Engineering/Science students tend to be more demanding. Some schools have more rigorous grading standards overall, like Swarthmore and Cornell versus Harvard. But when two schools significantly differ in graduation rate and they are about the same in rigor and tech-emphasis, then I wonder about things like the campus climate and cost. Large publics like Michigan and Penn State are low in cost to residents and offer an exciting, fun campus life. They have high graduation rates in relation to their SAT scores (although I wonder how Penn State improved its grad rate so much in the last 15 years...what changed?). After I subjectively factor everything in, and compare with similar schools, I am left with a question about the quality of life at Swarthmore. However, I still think it would be a good place to study economics and I give it a slight edge over Cornell because of the opportunities for close interaction with faculty. Nevertheless, my love for the Big Red remains undiminished.</p>
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After I subjectively factor everything in, and compare with similar schools, I am left with a question about the quality of life at Swarthmore.
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<p>That makes no sense. </p>
<p>Again, Swarthmore has one of the highest graduation rates of any college or university in the country: an average 96% freshman retention rate and an average 92% graduation rate over the last ten years. </p>
<p>This despite having, on average, one of the more demanding academic programs in the country, academic rigor that will have its biggest impact on those at the bottom end of the academic scale.</p>
<p>If you are concerned about a 92% graduation rate at one school, then you should be equally concerned about a 92% graduation rate at another school (Cornell, for example). I will say this. If students wants a college where they can cruise through four years without cracking a book and get a "gentleman's cum laude", Swarthmore is most definitely not the place to go.</p>
<p>BTW, SATs are not the real predictor of college graduation, IMO. Studies have shown that, within a narrow range, SATs don't predict much of anything. The real correlation is probably family income (which, of course, tends to correlate with SAT scores as well).</p>
<p>BTW, here are the top 24 graduation rates for LACs as reported by USNEWS:</p>
<p>Amherst College (MA) 97%</p>
<p>Williams College (MA) 96%</p>
<p>Haverford College (PA) 92%
Middlebury College (VT) 92%
Pomona College (CA) 92%
Swarthmore College (PA) 92% </p>
<p>Wellesley College (MA) 91%
Wesleyan University (CT) 91%</p>
<p>Bowdoin College (ME) 90% </p>
<p>Bates College (ME) 89%
Bucknell University (PA) 89%
Carleton College (MN) 89%
Colgate University (NY) 89%
College of the Holy Cross (MA) 89%
Davidson College (NC) 89% </p>
<p>Vassar College (NY) 88%
Washington and Lee University (VA) 88% </p>
<p>Connecticut College 87%
Hamilton College (NY) 87% </p>
<p>Claremont McKenna College (CA) 86%
Colby College (ME) 86%
Lafayette College (PA) 86%
Smith College (MA) 86%
Wheaton College (IL) 86%</p>
<p>Chedva, that is a total mischaracterization of Cornell. Yes TAs mostly teach the smaller classes (e.g. labs), but world-renowned, award-winning lecturers teach us for our bigger classes. Swarthmore definite does not have that advantage. There are advantages and disadvantages to having big classes. It's not that bad. Plus if you really had the initiative and desire to learn, you can easily go to the professor's office hours and do some undergrad research. Cornell has a lot of resources that are unavailable at Swarthmore.</p>
<p>The point is, Cornell does have classes, and some classes are taught by TAs, but don't make that a focal point in your decision making process.</p>
<p>if you really had the initiative and desire to learn, you can easily go to the professor's office hours and do some undergrad research.<</p>
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<p>Match point. I really think the above quote says it all. Sitting in the back of a lecture hall while ACADEMIC LEADER [fill in name] reads from notes is not exactly learning at its best. LACs take the idea of not just office hours, but of getting to know your profs over coffee AND the possibility doing research for them, pretty much for granted.</p>
<p>I also based my comment on the impression my d got from her Cornell professor at their summer program this year. My d likes to participate in discussion classes, not lectures. Her professor was that type, but told my d that she was an exception. Her Cornell prof suggested that my d look at LAC's for her type of education.</p>
<p>It all depends on what you want and how you learn.</p>
<p>"SATs don't predict much of anything. The real correlation is probably family income " - interesteddad</p>
<p>The correlation between graduation rate and SAT 75th percentile among the top 50 LACs is moderately high (.65). When you add the top 10 LACs in each of the other tiers to get a sample more representative of all LACs, the correlation is very high (.82). The correlations are pretty high despite the fact that there are quite a few "unusual" LACs in the mix (e.g. Harvey Mudd, Bard, bible colleges, all women colleges, etc). It would not be unusual to find nearly perfect correlations (over .9) between SAT and grad rate when you select schools that are similar in "style" but diverse in SAT.</p>
<p>The thing that strikes me about Swarthmore is that Amherst and Williams are similar to Swarthmore in student quality (measured by SATs in the 1320-1520 middle 50% range) but Swartmore has a 92% grad rate while Amherst has a 97% grad rate and Williams has a 96% grad rate. Not a huge difference, but enough to make me wonder why.</p>
<p>I respect Swarthmore for being demanding and for having high standards. If that were the reason for the 92% grad rate for Swarthmore versus the 97% grad rate for Amherst, I would say good for Swarthmore. But, I doubt that Swat is much more difficult than Amherst. Am I wrong?</p>
<p>Regarding family income: I would say that SAT scores and family income are both caused by being smart and hard-working, but all the money in the world won't buy an A at Swarthmore (or Cornell).</p>
<p>I wish some Swarthmore students could shed some light on this...this is summer...you can't all be studying.</p>
<p>Cornell and Swarthmore epitomize the difference between a great University and a great LAC.</p>
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I have read that Swarthmore is one of the hardest schools to score 'A's in, though I have also heard the same about Cornell.
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<p>Great quote ... you're looking at two great schools ... both of which push their students to learn. As a Cornell grad I loved the place and would recommend it to anyone who visits and loves the Ithaca/Cornell experience (and some will not). As a parent I have a daughter who may love Swarthmore and I'm guessing she'll eventually apply there ... and I hope she does.</p>
<p>Both schools are great and academically very rigorous. Grad schools and major employers know all about both schools and respect them both. That said they are very different places ... Swarthmore a small LAC close to a big city ... Cornell a big research school in a college town far from a a big city. I'd suggest visiting both (and staying in dorms with students) and I'd bet one will feel like a better fit. </p>
<p>Good luck with the search. (PS - for my own personal reasons I'd love to hear your thoughts as you progress through your decision ... they may help my daughter!)</p>
<p>So does Swarthmore not have the "academic leaders of the world" teaching its students? I am lost on how one can convince me that Cornell is "better" without substantial evidence. I thought Swarthmore had great profs who took you to dinner, invited you into their homes, and bend over backwards for any and all their students. </p>