<p>thoughtprocess,</p>
<p>you're the one skirting the facts that i've stated plainly in a number of posts.</p>
<p>Duke's AA population is underrepresented given that 40% of its class hails from the South. Period.</p>
<p>Why do you keep trying to compare those numbers to Cornell? Only 5% of Cornell's class hails from the South. Period.</p>
<p>This is starting to get very repetitive in a bad way.</p>
<p>the_prestige, all you have to do to convince me that Duke should be even more diverse is to find the proportion of African American college-age students in the South who are planning to apply to top 10 colleges, and also show that Duke rejects black applicants at a higher rate than Cornell ... otherwise, there isn't a problem, unless you consider not forcing more black students to apply a problem...</p>
<p>I encourage every poster to read over everything me and the_prestige are discussing, and to look at sources like collegeboard.com WSJ or US News when considering undergrad strength and sources like Black Enterprise to see recommendations from the black community on the best schools for black students....</p>
<p>BTW what percent of Duke SHOULD be black, based on your analysis of the situation using just overall Black proportions in the South?</p>
<p>T_P - I'm curious as to what you think Duke should do about that though. I can tell you it already aggressively recruits African-Americans, going so far as to offer minority-only merit scholarships. </p>
<p>I don't see a reason to penalize Cornell for having an underrepresented black population, but then again, I don't see a reason to punish Duke for the same. Raw numbers really do matter to minority students. Regardless of if Duke should have more black students than Cornell, the fact that it does makes some African-Americans feel more comfortable. The high school I attended came under fire for minority underrepresenation, and simply increasing the raw numbers was deemed a significant step in coaxing more URMs to apply.</p>
<p>As an outsider looking in, this is what I've observed:</p>
<ul>
<li>the Duke lacrosse scandal on a national level (attention and awareness)</li>
<li>exposing the underlying racial tension (both internally within the campus and externally within the Durham community at large)</li>
<li>these events have served to exacerbate Duke's reputation for being a "rich, Southern white school" surrounded by a community of largely poor-middle class blacks</li>
<li>Duke's placement within the Top 20 for Princeton Review's ranking for both "Town/Gown Relations are Strained" and "Little Race/Class Interaction" are evidence of the above</li>
</ul>
<p>Now do I have any or all the answers to the problems which lay beneath the surface? No I do not.</p>
<p>But to represent Duke as an extremely "diverse" school and that everything is hunky-dorey is IMO disingenuous at best.</p>
<p>Two points: I'm no fan of the guys on the lax team, but the scandal appears to be the result of a false allegation. And while I agree that that town-gown relations are strained, the on-campus racial tension has been greatly exaggerated by the media, who apparently had a specific agenda from the moment they set foot on campus - namely, to exacerbate Duke's "Plantation" rep.</p>
<p>Duke isn't extremely diverse...but it IS more diverse than almost every top 25 school in the country (moreso than 5 Ivy League schools) and is rated as one of the best schools by actual black organizations</p>
<p>So, lets strike a deal - Duke is backwards and plantation like and not that diverse - however, it is less backwards and plantation like and more diverse than Cornell (based on stats, actual rankings by black organizations)</p>
<p>This is based on the actual African America organization rankings themselves and collegeboard.com which reveals Duke is more racially diverse than Cornell</p>
<p>If the above statement strikes you as unfair...well, whatever, facts are facts</p>
<p>BTW what % of Duke should be black based on your research???</p>
<p>i don't think t_p is advocating that Duke's AA percentage needs to hit a certain number per se, i think its pretty clear that as he/she states, that comparing Duke (a school located in the South with a majority of its students coming from that region) versus Cornell (a school located in the NE with a fraction of its students coming from the South) isn't a fair apples to apples comparison when it comes to comparing AA numbers. no more, no less.</p>
<p>^^^ exactly.</p>
<p>I'm not sure why the_prestige's point is so hard to understand.</p>
<p>In my personal experience, I would say that Duke has made tremendous strides in recruiting minorities, but also that its white-dominated, wealth driven, social culture still exists and is uncomfortable to minorities. Duke doesn't seem very integrated when I've visited. The Lacrosse scandal turns off applicants for this reason.</p>
<p>I came from a large public high school (30% white, 30% black, and 40% other, with immigrants from 52 countries), and visiting top colleges (all of them!) was a bit of a culture shock. Still, there's more to diversity than race. I would also make a definite distinction between self-segregation and racial friction- they are not at all the same thing. Self-segregation occurs at Duke to a certain extent, but racial friction is not nearly as present as the media hypes it up to be. There are still strides to be made, of course.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I would say that Duke has made tremendous strides in recruiting minorities, but also that its white-dominated, wealth driven, social culture still exists and is uncomfortable to minorities.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Slipper, this is precisely my point - you've nailed something on the head.</p>
<p>i mean forget absolute numbers and proportionality for a moment, what is the point of "diversity" when you "FEEL" uncomfortable as a minority? </p>
<p>have you heard of minorities "FEELING" really uncomfortable at other elites? Brown? Dartmouth? Princeton? Yale? Harvard? Stanford? MIT? UPenn? Cornell? Columbia? not that I've ever head about, and yet, we hear these things about Duke. so, really, the proof is in the pudding.</p>
<p>so, is it any surprise that Duke (whatever anyone claims about "diversity") ranks so high (no. 6) in Princeton Review's Ranking of Little Race/Class Interaction - the actual question asked is "Do different types of students (black/white, rich/poor) interact frequently and easily?" ... and to drive the point home even further, why don't the other elites appear anywhere near this list? How come Brown, Dartmouth, Princeton, Yale, Harvard, Stanford, MIT, UPenn, Caltech, Cornell, Columbia - NONE of those schools aren't anywhere near this list? Could it be that these schools are simply more "open", more "diverse", more "friendly" than Duke? Could it be a possibility? Is it a stretch? Think about it.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Self-segregation occurs at Duke to a certain extent, but racial friction is not nearly as present as the media hypes it up to be. There are still strides to be made, of course.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>well said, but as you said, racial friction, however does exist unfortunately - whether it gets hyped up by the media or not.</p>
<p>
[quote]
so, is it any surprise that Duke (whatever anyone claims about "diversity") ranks so high (no. 6) in Princeton Review's Ranking of Little Race/Class Interaction - the actual question asked is "Do different types of students (black/white, rich/poor) interact frequently and easily?" ... and to drive the point home even further, why don't the other elites appear anywhere near this list? How come Brown, Dartmouth, Princeton, Yale, Harvard, Stanford, MIT, UPenn, Caltech, Cornell, Columbia - NONE of those schools aren't anywhere near this list? Could it be that these schools are simply more "open", more "diverse", more "friendly" than Duke? Could it be a possibility? Is it a stretch? Think about it.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>werd.......</p>
<p>First, my argument was based on two facts - I obviously understand theprestiges point perfectly but still think its not important to consider - after all, he didn't prove that college age black students that apply to top schools consider Duke less, and he didn't prove Duke accepts black students at a lower rate than Cornell. On top of that, he still didn't give me the ideal proportion of black students at Duke - I mean, if he says Duke is worse than Cornell in diversity even though it has a high proportions of URMs, he should state with his research what exactly should the "ideal" proportion of black students be.</p>
<p>The facts are this: Cornell has less diversity than Duke in terms of URMs - Duke has twice as many black students as Cornell; black organizations such as Black Enterprise say Duke is one of the best schools for black students - higher than Cornell in both major rankings I saw</p>
<p>So, when did the_prestige's opinion regarding black students become more important then the published positions of actual black organizations? </p>
<p>And we are just arguing about diversity here - student strength and placement shouldnt even be under debate - Duke beats Cornell in both categories pretty significantly when it comes to considering the very top schools</p>
<p>Of course, Duke and Cornell are both amazing schools - its obvious which one I think is better academically and why (as well as the majority (70something percent) of actual cross-admits, US News, THES, WSJ...etc.). The_prestige says Cornell has more respect than Duke on Wall Street, this isn't based on anything, though its worth noting Duke is ranked much higher on the Times Higher Education Corporate Recruitment Survey, where Duke was just a step below HYPSM, tied near with Columbia</p>
<p>You are so right thethoughtprocess, Duke University is just like heaven for minorities, esp. African Americans.</p>
<p>I wonder what your excuse is going to be when black organizations blast Duke in upcoming publications - I'm just waiting for that shoe to drop.</p>
<p>Agoodfella - Actually the rankings I'm discussing were released a few weeks ago. I think September's first week every year. Go figure...no dropping of the shoe. Even after a pretty bad PR hit from the lax story. </p>
<p>So, Black Enterprise or the Black Journal ranking (which had Duke in the top 5 behind Harvard, Stanford) has Duke as one of the best schools in the country for black students - does this mean Black Enterprise and black organizations are off about Duke, and random people on a message board know whats best for black students based on...well...I don't know - I'm sure assuming Duke is still a backwards place is based on something other than blatent stereotyping (kind of like pretending Cornell students are better than Duke students academically, even though pretty much any written record confirms otherwise).</p>
<p>Or do they not know that Duke should have a higher proportion of black students than its academic peer institutions...because its located closer to the South than Ivy League schools and the south is more diverse than the North....thats probably it then. </p>
<p>Btw, whats the ideal percentage of black students at Duke? Go ahead and answer the same question for UVA, Rice, and Georgetown - shouldn't these schools be more diverse also, since they are in the South? Georgetown - 8 percent black, Rice - 6 percenr black, UVA - 10% black.</p>
<p>Yeah-- personally, I've been seeing several articles saying that Duke is one of the top schools in the nation for Black students. I have a lot on my plate this week, but given a spare moment, I'll gladly look for some. Agoodfella -- what you're talking about is speculation of the future, unless you have some inside information working for a publication that's about to blast Duke for this. </p>
<p>Personally, I'm a NY resident. I've seen firsthand the strength and size of the Cornell alumni organization. I know SO MANY Cornell alums and Cornell students. It's a school that I've always had utmost respect for, even if it's a place that ultimately wasn't the right place for me. I go to Duke. I love it. I think it's an incredibly strong place academically, I think it has a vibrant and wonderful social scene and community. My Duke experience has exceeded my expectations of what this place will actually be like.</p>
<p>TO say that Duke is at fault for white students hanging out with white students and black with just black... I mean, ever hear of students being comfortable with what they know? I'm sure if I open up the facebook photos and webshots of my friends at Cornell, I'll see the majority of students in them of the same ethnicity (of course, there are some exceptions, just as there are at Duke). I'm not going to say that Cornell has race relations problems because of this though. </p>
<p>Picking which elite school is more elite is really a waste of time and effort. Who cares whether Duke's English department is better than Cornell's, unless you plan on going to graduate study for ENGLISH, and even then, your grad school matters. (I know that's not what the OP is talking about, but someone did post a list of all the random A&S majors that are "better" at Cornell. Who cares???) As long as you do well at your school--whether its Duke or Cornell-- take advantage of all that's there to offer, doors aren't going to be slammed in your face because you chose one or the other. let's be realistic here... both schools are so hugely respected, grad programs and companies will be glad to have alumni of either school.</p>
<p>Saying that Duke has this social life dominated by the strong personalities of the 'elite' sororities and fraternities and how that is an issue with the Duke way of life really does turn a blind eye to similar practices at Cornell. I go up to party at Cornell with my friends. I know that there are 'elite' fraternities and sororities there, and that their members do walk around like they own the place. I've seen it firsthand. I'm not going to deny that it happens at Duke. But come on, it'll happen anywhere where there's Greek life. </p>
<p>Cornell hockey games are ridiculously fun, and I'll even say that as a Duke student. I had a blast when I went. But Duke basketball is just as fun. And I'm not really that into sports as a whole... </p>
<p>College is what you make of it. To the person who mentioned that at Cornell you can get research with top-notch professors: you can at Duke, too. I've used that resource. You can also meet new people at Duke "every day" and explore different parts of campus. And if you're not a person that wants that, then still, either school is fine. Not everyone cares about doing research or about meeting a new person a day for four years. </p>
<p>I think that a lot on this discussion comes down to comfort on campus culture. I got a completely different vibe between the two schools, and it's hard to express it into words without some overzealous Cornell student jumping down my throat telling me that what I felt is in fact, completely wrong. it's what I felt. It's a personal decision. Go where you're most comfortable. For me that place wasn't Cornell -- it was Duke.</p>
<p>which school duke or Cornell has more grade deflation?</p>
<p>This is Dania Ramirez vs. Alison Stokke...so close that a definitive answer is simply impossible. You just have to go with personal preference...which one really hits you deep down in your bones.</p>
<p>i was looking both at duke an cornell. Am interested in engineering (not biomed) so cornell looks like the better option of the two, but duke seems like a school i would have fun at etc.</p>