Cornell vs JHU vs Williams

<p>With regard to Ephman’s antiquated WSJ feeder school citation, and similar per capita based “studies”— not only is it outrageously dated, but also its per capita methodology is clearly bogus with respect to a large and diverse university like Cornell. This is because most prospective students who are choosing between a large university, and a top LAC, are usually applying at Cornell to either Arts & Sciences (CAS), or the College of Engineering. If the “per capita” analysis were applied solely to the relevant college at the university vs. the LAC, then the results would be very different, and would show the larger university in a much better light – apples-to-apples, instead of apples to grapefruit. It is not right for all the unrelated colleges and programs to be aggregated into a “per capita” analysis that is independent of them. (Thanks to monydad for helping me understand this fact.)</p>

<p>Here is an excerpt from monydad’s post that I had meant to highlight in my quote from him above:

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<p>I’d trust a dated, imperfect study (and again, Williams fares better than lots of other schools, traditionally considered more prestigious among the Ivy league than Cornell, such as Dartmouth, Columbia and Brown, that don’t have the issue you highlight in terms of Cornell’s various colleges) over the completely unsupported, unverified, and frankly untrue statements made by some of the Cornell supporters here. I’ll say it again, the burden is on those of you who are asserting that Cornell has better placement on Wall Street, or anywhere else, than Williams, to come up with facts supporting it. So far, you have provided ZERO support for your claims. You also ignore one absolutely objective fact: Williams has a HUGE advantage vs. Cornell in terms of financial resources and expenditures on undergrad education. That does make a difference. </p>

<p>The quote from monydad that you’ve now highlighted a few times, for example, is useless, and actually demonstrates that he just doesn’t know much about Williams circa 2012 (his views seem more in line with the Williams of the early 1980’s, which was a very different place) – based on what is Williams’ student body more homogenous?? I am fairly certain, for example, that Williams has a higher percentage of Black and Latino undergrads than Cornell, as well as a higher percentage of Pell Grant recipients. And based on what are an “atypically high number” interested in Wall Street? Atypical compared to who? You are talking about the totally dated, totally anecdotal, totally unsupported opinions of one person as if they are in way, shape, or form meaningful, while outright dismissing the results of studies which, while admittedly flawed, are certainly more objective and more reliable than some random internet message board participant’s dated opinions. At least try to pretend to apply the same standards of analytical rigor to those who agree with you as you do to those who disagree, OK?</p>

<p>Here are some Wall Street Cornell University alumni for you:</p>

<p>Sandy Weill - Former chairman and chief executive officer of Citigroup</p>

<p>Here’s some former Goldman Sachs partners who are Cornell alums:
Stephen Friedman (co-chair)
Bob Katz
Don Opatrny
Mike Rantz
Abby Joseph Cohen
Rick Sherlund
Bob Harrison</p>

<p>Mark Bertolini – CEO and President of Aetna
Ratan Tata – Chairman of Tata Group (India’s wealthiest business group)</p>

<p>There are many, many more, but those I’ve listed above make my point.</p>

<p>By the way, Cornell was listed on that old, and flawed, WSJ feeder school list at 25th. They would have been much, much higher if it were not for the unfair practice of aggregating all the colleges of large/diverse universities.</p>

<p>A similar unfair practice befalls large/diverse universities for many studies of engineering programs that use university-wide “per capita” methodologies.

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<p>This unfair practice of university-wide “per capita" analyses applies in equal measure to a school like Cornell. The cited WSJ feeder study is clearly bogus. AEM/Dyson would not currently be ranked 3rd by BusinessWeek if the program had any big problem placing its alumni.</p>

<p>By the way, where is Williams placed in the BusinessWeek undergrad business school ranking??</p>

<p>[Best</a> Undergraduate Business Schools 2012 - BusinessWeek](<a href=“Bloomberg - Are you a robot?”>Bloomberg - Are you a robot?)</p>

<p>_</p>

<p>Haha, you think they’d ever spend that endowment on you as an undergrad. Think again. You PAY to enroll in college, not the other way around, and the colleges are well aware of that. What matters is class size and opportunities. Williams wins out on class size, cornell on opportunities. I will remove myself from the rest of the argument as I can tell this is going to get escalated and become a pain.</p>

<p>Regarding endowment, cornell is also putting quite a bit of its funding for the NYC tech campus.</p>

<p>^ Here’s an interesting recent report by 'Wired magazine" regarding the CornellNYC Tech Campus:</p>

<p>[How</a> Cornell Beat Stanford (And Everybody Else) for NYC Tech Campus](<a href=“How Cornell Beat Stanford (And Everybody Else) for NYC Tech Campus | WIRED”>How Cornell Beat Stanford (And Everybody Else) for NYC Tech Campus | WIRED)</p>

<p>_</p>

<p>That is kind of old news but i pointed it out because that’s where some of the funding’s going.</p>

<p>It may be old news for you on campus at Cornell, but it’s very new for folks that are not yet up on it.</p>

<p>First, Williams does not have an undergraduate business school. So what? By your logic, you are more likely to end up with a plum ibanking or consulting job (which, by the way, I recommend against in any event, but that is an entirely different discussion) if you go to, say, Bentley, than if you choose Williams. Yet no one would ever tell you to do so. Williams grads are represented throughout the ranks of Wall Street, and that is well known, so obviously, not having an undergrad business school is no disadvantage. (And by the way, I love how you keep moving the goalposts, half the time, Cornell is unfairly disadvantaged because its various professional schools get taken into consideration by various rankings, but in the very same breadth, you try to argue, still with no proof, that Williams is somehow inferior to Cornell in placement only because it does not offer professional degrees. At the very least, pick one, and stick with it, either compare apples to apples and stick with Cornell’s A&S, or consider the entire undergrad student body). </p>

<p>Second, to ignore endowment and act as if its irrelevant is simply silly. It’s one of the few objective measures schools can be compared by. And it’s flat out false to claim that endowment is not spent on undergrads. Williams, like most schools (in Williams’ case, it’s around five percent) spends a certain amount from its endowment per year on undergrads. Thus, Williams ends up spending far more per year per undergraduate student than Cornell. While not a one-to-one correlation in quality, that directly translates into smaller classes, more access to full professors, more money for research, funding, and grants for undergraduates, better facilities on a per-student basis, and on and on. It’s one of the few objective measures we have to compare colleges and universities, and it is of course no accident that highest per-student endowment is closely correlated with almost every other measure of prestige, competitiveness in terms of admissions, success of graduates, and the like. </p>

<p>I’m sorry, but your comment that “you pay to enroll in college, not the other way around” shows that you really don’t understand how American colleges work, because even for full-pay students, tuition doesn’t come close to covering a college’s expenditures on you. And for a large portion of the Williams campus – remember 54 percent of Williams students are on financial aid, and the average package is something north of 40k per year – that statement is just laughably wrong. Williams spends well over 80,000 per year, per student to educate its students. Tuition, even for the fewer-than-half of campus who do not receive substantial financial aid, is tens of thousands less than that. The difference comes, in large part, from the endowment. Believe me, it matters. </p>

<p>By the way, while I do think Cornell’s tech campus is an awesome idea, considering that it, you know, does not yet exist, I don’t think that should factor into a prospective’s decision for the next four years. But I love the model and I think more cities should emulate it going forward, especially a place like, say, Detroit, which could badly use an infusion of human capital.</p>

<p>^</p>

<p>When over $350 million dollars has been contributed to a project – Cornell NYCTech – by just one Cornell alumnus, Chuck Feeney of Atlantic Philanthropies, I would say that it in some sense exists already. When New York City has already given the prime land for the campus, well, the land exists. When Cornell already has set aside temporary space in some of its other NYC facilities, well, that exists. Moreover, this tech campus relates to future prestige and opportunity to anyone at Cornell currently involved in STEM disciplines.</p>

<p>Additionally, you keep falsely claiming that the respondents to you have proffered no proof. It is not that we haven’t done so; it’s just that you have cavalierly ignored anything that doesn’t fit with your worldview that Williams beats all at placing for Wall Street. While Williams does well at this, so do others— including Cornell. One post in particular that you have ignored was the posting that lists actual Cornell alumni who attained the highest levels in the business/banking world; and you have not explained why Cornell’s undergraduate business/economics programs rank so well if, as alluded to in your diatribes, they do not. They, of course, stack up quite well indeed, thank you very much.</p>

<p>Colm, why don’t you actually read my posts before criticizing them. I never said Cornell had a bad business / econ program, or did not offer a viable path to a great Wall Street job, which is the straw man you are shooting down. Cornell offers a great path to Wall Street, AS DOES WILLIAMS, despite what some here have suggested. All I did was, successfully, debunk the false claims that Cornell was demonstrably superior to Williams in that regard. Listing a bunch of successful Cornell alums in no way provides “proof” of Cornell’s superiority to Williams. Guess what? I already listed, on this thread, an equally successful group of Williams alums. Not one Cornell supported has provided any evidence of Cornell’s superiority to Williams in job placement in Wall Street, or any where else, despite overblown claims that Cornell is >>>>>> Williams. Can you at least concede that there is no support here for that, so we can all move on? As I have said repeatedly, I’m not trying to dissuade someone from choosing Cornell over Williams if that is where they would be happiest. I am just saying that it is silly to choose Cornell over Williams for someone who prefers Williams, due to a misplaced / erroneous concern about the career prospects of Williams alums. </p>

<p>The NYCTech program is an amazing one, and something I wholeheartedly endorse. But the fact remains, the tech campus still has to be built. Someone attending Cornell TODAY will receive few, if any, benefits from that tech campus. It’s like saying, attend Amherst, they are building a state of the art science center that will open in 2016 (or something like that). Well, great, but you can’t USE that state of the art science center if you are attending Amherst in 2013, just like you can’t study in non-existent science buildings in NYC if you are attending school at Ithaca in 2013. It’s not going to meaningfully affect the actual academic life of current undergrads at Cornell.</p>

<p>^</p>

<p>We are even. My take is that you, likewise, do not actually read my posts. I have repeatedly praised Williams, and even in my last post admitted that Williams does well at Wall Street placement (as does Cornell). I’ve also suggested to OP that he can’t go wrong with any of his options, and that he would be well advised to visit the respective campuses to find out which one fits best for him.</p>

<p>I’d say Williams since you sound like you want a small school environment. But don’t expect it to be that conservative at all, it’s in Williamstown! </p>

<p>However, I will say that there are a lot more opportunities for science majors at JHU and Cornell esp. in research (which I would pick the latter).</p>

<p>'13 Bio major</p>

<p>I’ve got to say that Ephmann comes across as more objective; Colm’s slipup with the businessweek undergrad biz program rankings (where the catch is that most top schools don’t have undergrad biz programs) shows that he’s just reaching for anything which appears to show Cornell in a positive light, and there’re too many instances of breezily romantic statements in what should be a quantitative discussion: “What distinguishes Cornell is its incredible range of academic communities, and sub-communities, that generate a tremendous amount of energy. For a few this breadth of opportunity is too much, but for most this diversity and energy is exactly why they chose Cornell. Cornell rewards independent minded students who are adept at decision making without an excess of handholding.” </p>

<p>Also a quick note: Forbes is arguably a better ranking than USNWR. </p>

<p>[Best</a> Colleges: The Real Rankings - CBS News](<a href=“http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505144_162-51345754/best-colleges-the-real-rankings/]Best”>http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505144_162-51345754/best-colleges-the-real-rankings/)</p>

<p>^It’s quite funny how some colleges fare against others on that list (colby, washington and lee, boston college, emory, union college, and such schools all above columbia, cornell, and upenn? really?) That list is simply made to favor smaller schools.
I do agree that Williams and Amherst are always among the top liberal arts schools though. However, as I objectively said, choosing between two top schools of very large sizes and very good reputations is more of a personal preference thing.</p>

<p>@Eph
Like i said, those rankings you pulled up earlier really doesn’t show much. Cornell stresses its breadth and the students go for many different majors because they are given the opportunity to. I, for example, am not looking to do investment banking on wallstreet or any of those 14 grad schools in 3 fields. They’ve just wasted a spot on me according to that ranking methodology. If you really want to do objective rankings for THOSE fields, then count the number of people in those fields instead of including everyone else who isn’t interested, get a larger sample, and include more than just 3-4 top grad schools per field. There was a reason that those rankings never made it big.</p>

<p>As for endowment, we constantly USE the endowment for new buildings and such. We are in process of completing one and refurbishing one right now, and they’re finding ways to give more financial aid to the needy with that money. We have quite a lot of buildings because of the number of departments - <a href=“http://www.cornell.edu/img/maps/large.pdf[/url]”>http://www.cornell.edu/img/maps/large.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>@fidelic - post #34</p>

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<p>What is notable to me is that Fidelic knocked this quote without ever actually having described a single way in which it is not true. That Cornell consists of quite a few colleges (14), a wide range of well administered programs (see course catalog), and many student-run organizations (983) is not “romantic.” It’s a simple fact.</p>

<p>you’re premed? dear god do NOT attend cornell or JHU</p>

<p>^ Tell that to norcalguy (a prolific cc contributor); and tell that to so, so many other Cornell alums who are now in the driver’s seat as young hot-shot MDs recently minted from top med schools. Additionally, if you had read the original poster’s comments more carefully you would have discovered that he is not looking to go the traditional pre-med route, but has alternative ideas that fit very well with Cornell’s prowess in engineering, business, and research.</p>