<p>Here's the deal: I'm a big humanities guy, and I'm very ambitious about it. I want to wind up in publishing or academia, and will probably study literature and languages (maybe even classics) most intensively in college. My two best choices are Cornell and Middlebury. Cornell's got one of the top English departments in the country, admittedly, though Middlebury's extremely well-known for languages. I guess it comes down, ultimately, to small college vs. big university. I don't think I can go wrong with either of the choices, but I'm curious to see which of the two margins out the other in your opinions.</p>
<p>Middlebury, easily. If you want to do anything even remotely related to languages, go to Middlebury. It’s a great school, and Middlebury, Vermont is one of the most beautiful places that I have ever seen. Ultimately, it’s your choice, but I’d pick Middlebury over Cornell any day if I was planning to study languages. Good luck!</p>
<p>Cornell is actually going to give you more options and better preparation if you really want to be an academic.</p>
<p>You can just do the whole Middlebury language school thing in the summer if you’re that impressed, y’know. </p>
<p>Personally, I think the whole “Middlebury teaches languages better” thing is pointless. If you want to learn a language well, you go to wherever it’s the language of choice. No school in the US can do better than that.</p>
<p>You’re right that you can’t go wrong. When I was visiting Midd over Accepted Students Weekend many moons ago, Cornell was a very common school to which prospectives were admitted. Midd is breathtakingly beautiful, and the quality of the academic experience you’ll get there is unrivaled by Cornell.</p>
<p>I love Midd, but I’m also aware that Vonnegut and Nabokov, two of my favorite writers, were affiliated with Cornell at important times of their lives.</p>
<p>Good luck with your decision. And, it’s yours, not anyone else’s.</p>
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<p>Classic LAC vs. university tradeoffs, pure & simple.
Based on D1s experience at an LAC, and D2s experience at an LAC and then Cornell, I think both of them would choose Cornell. YMMV.</p>
<p>It probably depends in part on how perfectly you fit with Middlebury’s prevailing campus culture, and whether you come in with a iot of advanced placement, hence may be more likely to encounter more shortcomings in upper-level course offerings there. If you’re sure you’ll fit in perfectly there socially, and you have few APs, then it may be a more competitive option than otherwise. If it were me.</p>
<p>If you are an ambitious humanities student, it is a big advantage to attend a school with excellent PhD and MFA programs. Faculty at such institutions are required to publish/go to conferences in their field/establish national or international reputations, so they are likely to be interesting for serious students. They are used to mentoring and evaluating grad students so they will be able to give you an accurate assessment of your prospects in the field, which may not be true in a smaller LAC. As you get into your junior and senior years, the graduate students (and possibly, graduate courses) will become more and more interesting to you–you will never be the most “advanced” person around. There will be a ton of visiting scholars coming through to give talks and enrich the mix.</p>
<p>These factors IMO tip the balance strongly toward Cornell for a student with your interests, though Middlebury is also a good school. Cornell is unusually strong in languages/linguistics; Middlebury’s summer immersion program is not a reason to choose it for your undergraduate education.</p>
<p>
Middlebury does all right for a LAC. Compared to many universities, its language offerings are decidedly lacking. </p>
<p>Cornell would offer a greater variety of languages and culture-related courses, especially for a Classics major. Many other ancient languages (Akkadian, Sumerian, Hittite, Sanskrit, etc.) are annually offered at Cornell but not at Middlebury.</p>
<p>Thank you to everyone for your very useful advice. I should clarify that languages or classics would be studied in tandem (i.e. double major with or minor to) a major in English literature. I do have a great number of APs, and would be able to place out of introductory French German, English, history, etc. The possibility of running out of courses at a smaller college is a very real one.</p>
<p>I know well that having avenues for ambition is important, which is why Cornell may be best for me. My English teacher is afraid I’ll get ‘lost’ at Cornell and the competitive culture would destroy me. I think he’s quite wrong. Is the competition at Cornell ‘destructive?’</p>
<p>I think you are getting well-meaning but misguided advice from a bunch of “big university” people.
There is nothing to compare to the personal, individual experience at an excellent, well-endowed LAC with great facilities.Can’t get lost, can’t sleep thru your classes, because your profs, who will know you by name, will have a friend call your cell and get you up.If you get confused, depressed, or sick, someone will care.Grad school is for big big name schools.
My H went undergrad to MIT.I went to Bates. He got the name, but it really was gruelling.He was in classes of hundreds of people, sometimes taught by grad students whose grasp of English was tenuous. He got his phd at Cornell, he paid his way TEACHING CLASSES.
I got the attention I needed and the nurturing to get me thru some family and personal crises. We have talked about the contrast many times. Our sons are both lucky enough to be going to Midd. They didn’t even apply to MIT. We both advised them strongly to go to a small LAC NOW, get the grades and recs, and go to excellent grad schools.
You won’t run out of classes at Midd.There’s always independent study, or frankly, taking courses and learning about something you’ve never considered studying. The thought of “running out” of challenges at a school of Midd’s caliber is just absurd. My oldest son started taking college math courses(and getting A’s) in 9th grade. He is also a genius writer, and a total political junkie with perfect scores on most standardized tests. He is getting A’s in his classes at Midd so far but that isn’t upsetting him.He’s thinking of studying Chinese, and he also is getting very involved in the local political scene.
We also have a close family friend who is a freshman at Cornell. He had trouble getting into the classes he wanted, and he is also being taught by some TAs who are not very understandable. He is fairly unhappy and thinking of transferring.Of course, this is not everyone’s response to Cornell, but with the choice you have, I advise GO MIDD!!!</p>
<p>I attended Middlebury for undergrad and Cornell for Grad. This decision is not even close as far as I’m concerned. I would have been lost at Cornell as an undergrad. It’s huge and the administration definitely made me feel more like a number than a person. I have three degrees from three different schools. BY FAR, the best experience I had was as an undergrad at Midd. I still talk with my professors. We email back and forth on a regular basis. As an example, I was a TA at Cornell. I can assure you, those Cornell students were not paying for the quality of education I gave them. Even as a Grad student there I had a couple of TA’s teaching MY classes. Often English was far less understood than the subject they were teaching. In my field Cornell is considered one of the top three (if not THE) programs in the nation and I felt I did not get the quality of education there that I received at Middlebury. </p>
<p>I know undergrad and Grad school are not exactly comparable, but I definitely saw what life was like for undergrads. I can say that the Cornell name did carry some weight when applying for jobs . . . although, so did Middlebury. Do the small LAC for undergrad and then you’ll have your choice of graduate programs to attend later.</p>
<p>In addition, if you’re interested in publishing, Middlebury is the home of the New England Review and the Bread Loaf Writers Conference. Hard to make better connections than those.</p>
<p>
No more so than the dreadful portrait of universities often painted on CC by LAC advocates. </p>
<p>Universities are certainly not for everyone. For a student who needs or wants constant supervision, LACs are great. For a go-getter, however, universities can be absolutely great. They offer a broader range of classes, have more resources, and generally have a more diverse social scene. </p>
<p>The portrait of large schools as degree production mills with hundreds of students in classes and hordes of graduate instructors is vastly overblown. I took advantage of the resources of a nearby large public, and I found the faculty extremely willing to work with undergraduates. The people in the department knew me by name, what I was studying, and several even helped me with my thesis and wrote me recommendations - and I didn’t even attend that school. </p>
<p>I think perhaps the most vexing claim is the insinuation that LAC professors are all wonderfully kind, caring individuals while university professors are aloof and entirely wrapped up in research. This false dichotomy aside, not all LAC instructors are seasoned veterans devoted to their students - you can find quite a few ABDs teaching at even the most elite LACs. This is particularly true for small humanities departments like Classics, where LACs fluff up their offerings with adjuncts and visiting professors.</p>
<p>“well-meaning but misguided …” means there are trade-offs between LAC & university experiences, and you evaluate them one way, and are dismissive of the viewpoints of others who evaluate them differently.</p>
<p>For the record, D1 DID experience course limitations at her(large) LAC, which she entered with much advance standing. this is not hypothetical, or misguided, it really happened. She had to take courses she didn’t want to, to finish out her major, and couldn’t take some courses along the way because they conflicted with the only section offered of some other course she needed to take, etc. There was a whole subfield she got interested in that her school offered no courses in, so she could not pursue. Independent study was not an option for her since no faculty wanted to sponsor it, nobody there was knowledgeable or interested in this subfield. Both D1 and D2 encountered some conflicts with the predominant campus cultures at their respective schools that caused their social lives there to be suboptimal, and due to small homogeneous student body they found less room to maneuver socially. D1 would have prefered a bigger community, ulimately, as well. </p>
<p>The comments about smaller classes sizes are valid, but left out the point that there are many more classes at the u, and more sections of the same classes to reduce scheduling conflicts. Big school will have big freshman classes, TAs, but more options at the end.
But this is generic. </p>
<p>D2 has taken english, literature and creative writing classes at Cornell, and at her prior LAC (strong in these fields), liked them each. If anything has preferred Cornell. BTW these were all taught by profs. (some adjuncts and/ or “permanent lecturers” at the LAc) TAs may teach freshman seminars though (she placed out of these), and serve as graders and recitation section leaders in bigger classes. I’ve read on CC of some LACs that use (less-qualified) undergrads! as graders and TAs for some of their bigger classes, don’t know about Middlebury,</p>
<p>I’ve a friend who was an english major at cornell, when D2 was thinking about transferring there, possibly as an english major, he was very supportive, said he still talks to some of his professors there.</p>
<p>Uni vs. Lac experiences will clearly differ, yet there are people who choose each of these types of schools, they both exist.</p>
<p>D1 is working hard,but in the humanities fields she is in she has never said it was “competitive”. It is a big school and it is possible to feel lost, it is very important to carve out a strong social niche for ones self, to make it functionallly smaller.</p>
<p>There is no question that an LAC will be a more intimate and personal environment. If there were never any tradeoffs, or anything that could actually be negative that came with the more intimate environment, then it would be the clear winner, and nobody would attend any university. D1 and D2 did encounter trade-offs though, which caused this family to reconsider. Whether you will I don’t know.</p>
<p>I’ve said this many times before to people trying to decide between a large university and a liberal arts college, but it’s worth noting again: if you’re looking for the greatest exposure to different experiences and learning environments over your lifetime, go to the liberal arts college for undergrad. You can always pursue any number of advanced degrees at a research university once you’ve decided where your life’s journey will take you, but you’ll never have another chance to experience the intimate and nurturing learning environment that a top LAC will provide. </p>
<p>Ithaca (and Cambridge, New Haven, Hanover, etc.) will still be there when it comes time to continue the learning adventure that you began at Middlebury. Since graduating from Middlebury years ago, there have been countless times when complete strangers have walked up to me on Lake Shore Drive in Chicago, or Fifth Avenue in New York, or Embarcadero in San Francisco and introduced themselves to me with a huge grin and a handshake. I’m often taken aback until I realize that I’m wearing my old, faded Middlebury sweatshirt and they exclaim “Bob Smith, class of ‘65” or “my daughter graduated from Midd in ’81…” I’ve talked about this phenomenon with my friends who went to Cornell and Harvard and Duke, and they say this almost never happens to them. And it’s no wonder, considering that sweatshirts from their alma maters are for sale in airports and major department stores. </p>
<p>The bond among Middlebury grads is strong, deep, and lasting. Perhaps that’s why more Middlebury alumni donated to the college this past year than did alumni of any other college in the country. This bond follows you as apply to grad school, start your career, raise your family, and end up sending your kids there just so you can have an excuse to stroll the campus and see how things have changed. And perhaps, like me, you’ll feel jipped, because the campus is even more beautiful now, and the facilities much nicer and more expansive, than I remember. </p>
<p>These are two excellent choices, and there’s no wrong decision. Congratulations on your achievements and best of luck in making this difficult decision.</p>
<p>We’re not talking about some second rate, virtually unknown LAC ranked in the fifties here, where one could certainly expect “Visiting Professors” from third rate universities and incompetent “lecturers,” where one would run out of classes. This is Middlebury College, a premiere and well-respected LAC.</p>
<p>Running out of courses is impossible for one with a multitude of interests. One can only take, what, 32 courses in one’s undergraduate career. It doesn’t matter if a university offers OVER 9000 courses. There will be a very limited number which one can ultimately take. The argument “WHAT IF ONE WANTED TO STUDY OBSCURE HISTORICAL PERIOD/CULTURE X” is perfectly valid, but one can also arrange and pursue independent study at a tip-top LAC under the guidance and instruction of a relevant faculty member.</p>
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</p>
<p>Okay. I will make a concession. Everyone who wants to study Akkadian, Sumerian, Hittite, or Sanskrit, go to Cornell.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Have you read Cornell’s Course Offerings in the Classics, or are you just making an assumption? To pad its offerings, Cornell counts courses in Ancient Philosophy as Classics courses. It offers a handful of cross-perspective, modern/classical literature courses. Okay. A handful of classes in culture and mythology. Check. Sections in introductory Latin/Greek. One intermediate class for Latin and Greek. One Advanced Readings class for Latin and Greek. Good. Now, realize that the best LACs offer the same breadth and depth.</p>
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</p>
<p>You make faculty and administrators sound like Big Brother. They are simply there to respond to your every need. They don’t dote over you or put any pressure on you whatsoever. They are there to guide you, if you should want guidance at all.</p>
<p>Whoa Kwu, well said. Wish I knew how to do the quote thing, but I am essentially a luddite.
That’s why I’m OLD batsiedoc.</p>
<p>Also, thanks to Acadia for your insightful and wise comments.</p>
<p>My H went MIT/UMN/Cornell. He is now a prof at a small LAC. He knows all his students, calls their parents if he thinks they are getting into serious trouble with drugs or depression, has dinner with them, employs them as undergrads for research, has helped them get internships, into Law and Med school, etc. he still gets Christmas cards, birthday cards, thank you notes, taken out when he’s in town from students he helped shape/guide 15+ years ago.</p>
<p>Number of professors he is still in touch with from his career:his thesis advisor from Cornell. </p>
<p>Number of professors from Bates I still correspond with: 3. I was up there last summer and 2 profs recognized me who hadn’t seen or heard from me in 20 years. My kids were AMAZED. That’s the personal touch you’ll get at a small school.</p>
<p>“Have you read Cornell’s Course Offerings in the Classics”</p>
<p>This is a good point. OP should go to the Registrar’s List of courses actually being given this semeter, at both schools, and count the # courses, and sections that may remotely be of interest, at some point down the road, as your interests may develop and veer.</p>
<p>
And to pad its offerings, Middlebury includes a Hebrew scholar and visiting professor, leaving a decent but hardly remarkable 5 professors regularly teaching. Cornell has 12 tenured Greek/Roman language and history specialists, let alone the half dozen archaeologists. (And yes, I have, actually. I applied to its graduate program.)</p>
<p>I have nothing against LACs and made a case for Davidson in a recent Stanford vs. Davidson thread. Your point is well-taken that students are unlikely to run out of courses even at small colleges. It should also be admitted that there is less of a problem of size with the larger departments like economics, biology, or English.</p>
<p>
Except Middlebury isn’t actually teaching any introductory Latin or Greek next year…oops. That kind of sucks for a potential graduate student who needs four years of one of the languages, doesn’t it?</p>
<p>The fall 2010 courses are as follows:</p>
<p>Cornell</p>
<p>GREEK
Introductory Greek I
Intermediate Greek II
Greek Historiography
Advanced Readings: Euripides</p>
<p>LATIN
Elementary Latin
Latin in Review (transition from AP)
Intermediate Latin
Latin Prose
Roman Epic
Advanced Readings: Ovid
Latin Paleography </p>
<p>CIVILIZATION
Greek Culture
Greek Mythology
Theater, Sport and Spectacle
Periclean Athens
Topics in the Ancient Mediterranean
History of Rome I
Medieval to Renaissance in Greek Literature
Greeks, Romans, and Victorians
Plato</p>
<p>[Note: I left out over a half dozen ancient philosophy and art classes that should count.]</p>
<p>Middlebury </p>
<p>GREEK
Intermediate Greek I
Advanced Readings</p>
<p>LATIN
Readings in Latin Literature
Advanced Readings I
Advanced Readings III</p>
<p>CIVILIZATION
Archaic/Classical Greece
Greek/Roman Epic Poetry
Classical Literature</p>
<p>Granted, that isn’t that bad. In terms of Classics offerings, Middlebury is undoubtedly one of the better LACs out there. My point was simply that, in any given semester, a university is likely to offer somewhere between two and three times as many courses in any given subject. Considering how prone students are to schedule conflicts (the bane of my existence!), that’s quite a nice plus.</p>
<p>“Except Middlebury isn’t actually teaching any introductory Latin or Greek next year…oops.”</p>
<p>That reminded me of part of the circumstances leading D1 to have to take major courses she didn’'t want, in the end. There were more courses that interested her, in her field, but they weren’t being offered that semester, that year, when she came back from being away and needed to take them. The “every other year” thing is a real impediment, something they do try to expand their limited offerings, to cover more of the field with just those same few professors. That’s why I said you have to look at the registrar’s list of courses actually being given there now, not the course catalog. Because the catalog may include every course they ever thought of, even if they haven’t taught it since the one guy who was knowledgeable in that subject left four years ago. And many courses that are only offered every other year.</p>
<p>BTW another CC poster (Marite)'s son had a near identical experience as my D1 in this regard, at a different large LAC.</p>
<p>I would just point out that the Middlebury language “thing” is more than having a good approach to teaching language. There is unusual depth in the language course offerings at Middlebury compared with other LACs (I don’t know about Cornell) in terms of the levels offered and the opportunity for capstone courses in literature and politics taught in the language. The OP should really study the course offerings. Also, students are surrounded by other students who are taking 2 or 3 languages or picking up a new language during J term. It’s a great environment for language enthusiasts.</p>