<p>Just read the past few pages of this thread and wow. The attitude of people responding to gaiou is absolutely typical, unfortunately. They also prove her point of how arrogant many Americans are when anything negative is said about their country. Seems like people are picking on her and bringing up irrelevant points because they can’t argue against the facts she brought up. So what if she’s 26? I’m actually amazed that someone as young as her is able to use that much critical thinking. Oh wait, she’s from Europe, makes more sense now.</p>
<p>I wish I would have known all that stuff when I was 26, then I probably would have never made the mistake of moving here. Definitely time to leave.</p>
<p>An argument from experience can be valid. Not in a strict logical sense but much of life doesn’t fall into areas that can be determined by logic.</p>
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<p>So what if she’s 1?</p>
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<p>Yes, the folks that are trying really hard to tank the entire world economy.</p>
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<p>I was working my ass off making the US a better place when I was 26 instead of complaining about it.</p>
<p>Also, Europe is in this mess because of the US’ inability to handle their own economy, which unfortunately has a huge impact on the rest of the world (but how typical to point the fingers at Europe and not take responsibility).</p>
<p>I think I’m just gonna stop here, because there is no point in responding to people who use the most ridiculous arguments and do not contribute to the discussion. </p>
<p>I have it on good word from my European friends that Europe has a lot of problems of its own making. Of course since you’re blaming the US for Europe’s problems, the burden of proof is upon you to present your evidence.</p>
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<p>Didn’t you already say that you were done here and mumble something about finals? If you couldn’t stick to your word there, why should we believe that you will here?</p>
<p>“I have it on good word from my European friends that Europe has a lot of problems of its own making. Of course since you’re blaming the US for Europe’s problems, the burden of proof is upon you to present your evidence.”</p>
<p>They in fact do have problems of their own making. But the US’ influence is certainly not helping.</p>
<p>“Didn’t you already say that you were done here and mumble something about finals? If you couldn’t stick to your word there, why should we believe that you will here?”</p>
<p>Are you trying to make yourself sound more and more arrogant with each post you write?</p>
<p>Gaiou: You really should be the bigger person here and stop trying to reason with some of these people. It’s just not worth the headache. Good luck with your endeavors and enjoy Canada.</p>
<p>^^^I’m sure no one will be surprised to hear that I agree with BCEagle91.</p>
<p>Again, I just want to point out that none of us think that the US is perfect. However, to have someone say that we are rude and arrogant and that they don’t like this country, then get out!!! Obviously nothing we say will change your minds and that fine. I don’t really think we really care to. The USA isn’t for everyone and the ones that don’t like really do need to leave. Like someone said before dont let the US borders hit you in the tush. Just go. Call me arrogant, call me whatever you want, just call me from another country!!! See ya. </p>
<p>And Gaiou I’m sorry for your past. That certainly does sound like a difficult upbringing. But sometimes people who study courses in psychology or sociology do so, because they are trying to find answers to questions that are deeper than any textbook can answer. I think you need to do some soul searching. Find some happiness. When you begin to truly accept life for what it is- lots of ups and downs, positives and negatives, you will find yourself. I’m not sure any one country will do that for you. Only you can do that for you. Good Luck.</p>
<p>Soul searching? Wow some people really seem to read way too much into her comments. I think she was simply pointing out some of the extremely negative stuff in this country. Now I understand it’s not fun to hear, especially about your own country, but that doesn’t mean she doesn’t have a point. I have lived in many countries and I have to agree with much of what she said, unfortunately. And saying that she should accept life for what it is is irrelevant here. Gaiou even mentioned that she is not affected by the stuff she is denouncing, she was simply raising awareness as to certain things that are happening I think. Because of the attitude of some people on this forum, she likely will be reinforced in her already negative opinions.</p>
<p>I’m wondering if Gaiou’s parents passed before or after she moved here. Did her parents move here, bringing her, and then tragedy struck and she was orphaned here?</p>
<p>Or was she orphaned in Switzerland, and then some US relative was able to bring her here?</p>
<p>It’s understandable that if some very awful things happened in recent years (death of parents, awful marriage, etc), that these events would taint Gaiou’s opinion of the US. </p>
<p>No one thinks the US is perfect. The US is a great country, with some flaws, but still a great country.</p>
<p>Don’t crap in the house when you’re an invited guest.</p>
<p>We all complain about things in this country. But it’s our country to complain about. We know what the problems and non-problems are. Some things that some think are problems are not problems to others.</p>
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<p>Every country has its positives and negatives. Some more than others for different people. If you truly hate it here, please leave and be happy wherever you think the grass is greener.</p>
<p>Not to flog a dead or dying horse, but it’s worth contemplating some of the attitudes emerging on this thread, because it’s what gives rise to the half-truths about Americans shared globally.
Using sophist attacks instead of arguing the facts or telling people to leave if they don’t like it (despite the fact that our own government saw fit to issue permanent resident status, no small feat) does nothing toward promoting the kind of vigorous public debate upon which this country was founded.</p>
<p>Worse, this country wouldn’t even exist had it ignored the influence and thoughts of folks just because they were from other countries. Do you think Ben Franklin cribbed much from Voltaire? Do you think the timing of the French revolution was coincidental? The ideas that made America strong came from vigorous debate and people desiring a better life.</p>
<p>So, there’s a lot in terms of social policy I don’t personally like about the US, and I am a permanent resident, who brought myself and my business to this country. Should I not have volunteered in educational legislative action all these years? Should I just “suck it up” or “go home” when I see inequality in funding and delivery, or an erosion of literacy, or the commercialization of delivery (eg private enterprise delivering substandard online curriculum because urban publics can’t afford instruction)?</p>
<p>These insular leanings are not healthy for the US, particularly when it is performing so poorly in therms of k12 education worldwide (see the PISA report). </p>
<p>I think everyone has a responsibility to make whatever place they’re at better. It doesn’t matter where they came from. It only matters where they are. That’s the thing about humans – they’re supposed to be clever that way ;)</p>
<p>Well, this is the internet, and we have no idea if someone has permanent status or not, frankly, or whether they are even really going to Canada, or not, for that matter.</p>
<p>I’m pretty liberal and can easily see some issues with our education becoming prohibitively expensive. However, a big part of why our education is so expensive is that demand is so high from foreign nationals who CANT get an education at home and come here to take advantage of the disdained fact that anyone can get an education in the US.</p>
<p>It is easy to find things to criticize about the united states, but it is so rarely mentioned that our citizens give so much more, charitably speaking, than any other country, we make the rest of the world look like uncaring misers. It is rarely mentioned how much of humanitarian aid in the world is given through our involvement in the world bank, the United Nations, and our own government, not to mention private foundations and private individuals. When another country is faced with a tragedy, we are on the way. When Katrina happened? Where was the rest of the world? </p>
<p>It gets old.</p>
<p>You can’t compare an open education system to a closed system. We educate people in our country who aren’t even here legally. We are not some horrible nation of selfish, arrogant pigs. </p>
<p>Here is a genuine question: is there another country to which so many imigrate? And if not, why not?</p>
<p>Kmcmom13: I believe that the people on this thread who have stated “Its time to leave” are not arguing that the US is a perfect place and that it doesn’t need fixing. We have all stated, several times, that we are all open to opinions. We have conceded and stated that things aren’t perfect and in fact 'some" Americans can be greedy and unethical. But at the end of the day we would appreciate some ‘respect’. Once again, I have been fortunate and lived abroad. I can remember getting into debates with individuals about their country, and if I spoke or presented my argument in the fashion that Gaiuo or Rudysh have, I would have been tossed out on my rump too. And the truth is, that would have been understandable. There has been too much American Bashing on this thread and thats whats become unacceptable. If you or anyone considers that a form of debate, well I suspect you have gotten yourselves into a very good one. Just because we don’t feel like giving into to your idealogies doesn’t make us ignorant and vice a versa. I think all the facts that people have contributed, from both sides, are intelligent. But at the end of the day, this is US soil that everyone is sitting on and a certain amount of respect is required. Like I said I don’t think anyone would think it was acceptable if the tables were turned and we were in your homelands.</p>
<p>The term Ugly American was used. "Ugly American is an epithet used to
generally refer to loud Americans abroad - those complaining about how
bad things are in other countries or stating how good things are in
their own country.</p>
<p>So therefore we have Ugly Swedes and Ugly Canadians, right?</p>
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<p>Both antagonists stated their strong desires to leave. We do have a
vigorous public debate on the problems here. And some of us actually
work to solve them. We just don’t need Ugly <insert your=“” favorite=“” ethnic=“” group=“”> to crap on our living room. We can just read the foreign
newspapers that don’t understand the issues for that.</insert></p>
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<p>I think that what-if scenarios are not provable. I don’t see how you
can say that the country wouldn’t exist given a particular chain of
events. It might exist in a different form but it’s too late to find
out.</p>
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<p>Are you an Ugly Something?</p>
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<p>The US isn’t insular.</p>
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<p>If someone takes a dump in your living room and wants to discuss how
bad your blinds are, do you ask them to leave or discuss the blinds?</p>
<p>"Americans can be greedy and unethical. But at the end of the day we would appreciate some ‘respect’. "</p>
<p>========</p>
<p>Right. No one is arguing that this is a country full of only saints. Every country has criminals and scammers. I don’t think the US has a high number of them.</p>
<p>One thing that always has me scratching my head is that when we travel overseas, we’re told to wear money-belts and hide our wallets/purses, etc, because pickpockets and purse-grabbers and thieves are everywhere. </p>
<p>However, travelers to the US (or those who travel within the US) carry their purses openly and men can keep their wallets in pants pockets. They don’t have the same worries here. I’m not saying that there aren’t any incidents here, but travelers to and within the US do not have to worry as much about having “pockets picked” or “purses grabbed” as we do when we go abroad. Frankly, it annoys me that these other countries seem to have done little to protect the visitor to their country. It’s like they think that having their citizens rob tourists is just part of their economy.</p>
<p>This is College Confidential. People here are generally traveled and aware of their societies.</p>
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<p>A reasonable person would understand that there are positives and negatives to just about
everything. I idealize Singapore. They run a considerably different society. I like many things
about them and don’t like other things. I generally talk about the positive things. And yes
moving there is an option for us as we have a place there.</p>
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<p>I work with many from other countries - countries that have or have had repressive regimes.
In general, the folks will talk cautiously about the problems in the places where they live
until they get a sense that they can discuss these things with you. They have a sensitivity
to their environment and are aware that they are guests. They may have valid concerns
and I’ve had vigorous debates with them on a variety of topics - but they approach it in
the right way.</p>
<p>A lot of this spills over into the work environment. A new employee (not at my company)
asked me about an issue with someone that treated him as a subordinate and he wasn’t
sure if he worked for her or not. I suggested he look at the online org chart if there was
one. He was going to talk to her manager about it but I told him that organizations generally
frown upon going around the chain of command. In the end it turned out that he doesn’t
report to her but I just told him never to say anything negative about other employees
in a place where it could get back to someone where he works. He can complain to family
and trusted friends to blow off steam though.</p>
<p>Kmcmom13 just joined the conversation with a thoughtful response to some of the themes of this thread. She brought her business to this country. There is nothing “ugly” whatsoever in the things she said or the way she said them. Therefore, the question “Are you an Ugly Something?” seems ungracious to me. You may wish to quibble about the unprovability of certain “what-if scenarios”; that’s fair enough. But this quote from kmcmom13 is inarguable: “The ideas that made America strong came from vigorous debate and people desiring a better life.” When people are vigorously debating, they sometimes lose their cool. But even if someone doesn’t state a case elegantly (or tactfully) that doesn’t make his or her ideas wrong.</p>
<p>I am an American citizen whose late husband was a permanent resident (a UK citizen). He used to joke that even though he couldn’t vote here, he liked to pretend he could. He loved living here, and contributed to the country as a taxpayer, a scientist and a teacher who helped a lot of US kids get over their fear of chemistry. He occasionally criticized the country and occasionally made invidious comparisons between his adoptive and native countries. I could take it! (Except when he suggested something about the superiority of food in his native land. Dude, what?)</p>
<p>I wouldn’t get too worked up over this thread. The OP is young, pessimistic and idealistic, and probably hated to leave her comfortable home country. The US was disappointing to her for various reasons, though an education supported by cash-strapped Cal. Shouldn’t be one. I think when she gets to Canada and looks back, she find things weren’t so bad. I would just ignore Rudy, he’s probably a ■■■■■.</p>