My son has a friend who applied to 22 colleges. Maybe more. He started with 8 and was deferred EA from his top three choices, so his parents picked another batch, including lottery tickets. The big surprise from all of this are two highly rated schools that are offering nice merit money. Enough that choices 2 and 3 (first choice denied him) are on the back burner. Had not even visited the school that are now top considerations. He also threw in some true lottery tickets while adding all of those schools. As far as his parents were concerned, why not? So it can work out well to apply to many schools. But one does have to keep track of them all, which is no easy task.
The flaw in the GC’s advice is that it does not factor in finances.
It is not that hard to do the reach/match/safety thing when only considering admission. The goal is not to get into a lot of schools. The goal is to get into schools you can afford to attend.
When you factor in ability to pay/attend, the list can get very short or very long. In many cases, the only way to really determine affordability is to apply and get accepted.
My guidance counselor strongly encouraged students to not apply to more than 10 colleges. This is what she said in an email:
I think it is sound advice, though I did end up applying to 11 and getting into 10. I don’t think it is simply about not wanting to send out transcripts.
This list could also be named “Top Reasons NOT to Shotgun.” Most shotgunners fail at #7 and contribute to #2. If anything, I’d say that’s the reason why they usually have little success when applying to 10+ elite schools. It becomes apparent that they do not want to actually go to the school but moreover, they want the name to stamp on a resume.
Last year our daughter had applied to 15 schools, 8 of which were reaches (she was reach heavy) so a requirement for her was to have a sufficient amount of safeties and matches that addressed both admission and potential or likely merit awards. She ended up initially with 8 acceptances, 5 waitlists and 2 rejections. Ultimately ending up with 10 acceptances (she came off of two waitlists to be accepted) 3 waitlist positions she didn’t accept and 2 rejections.
If merit money is being pursued cast a wide and realistic net, if you have the credentials to be admitted in to reach schools I don’t know that applying to 2 or 3 is enough because of how incredibly selective they are.
So look at some of the CC posts right now…students who had many reaches and then got rejected and waitlisted on them. Alwso would the person who likes Cornell, really like Brown too?
The first thing is What is Affordable For your Family. Do you have high need? THen you look for “Meets Needs” school. Are you really rich? Cool. Are you in that unfortunate Doughnut between the two? Then you have to look for colleges where you could get a merit scholarship which are usally not reaches.
THen, what are your scores? IF you a below 2000 SAT there is no point in applying too high.
Does your student like essays? Because the more schools you apply to, the more you have to write and write and write.
Gouf:
I think that Thumper’s point is that a kid who is really happy with their match/safety schools may not really care if they get into their reaches and thus not need to apply to a whole bunch of them. My oldest son was accepted EA to Case Western (match) which was one of his top choices. He had a list that was about 10 colleges but once he was accepted he only finished three others (two were reaches) because he really liked Case Western.
The same for my middle son. He applied/was accepted to Belmont which is early admission. Belmont was his first and second choice. His first was Belmont as a music major (reach because of audition) and second was Belmont as a music business major (safety). After that he only applied to NYU (reach because he just wanted to see if he would get in and Miami (reach because of audition) because the application had already been in progress and the audition scheduled. He got in NYU and did not get in Miami (go figure) but chose to attend Belmont because it was his first choice all along.
I think it really depends on whether a kid is focused on getting in a school with a high rank or if they are evaluating schools on some other criteria. If the rank is important than you probably need to apply to a whole bunch of schools. If you are seeking merit aid it also makes sense to apply to a whole bunch of schools. However, if your child has found a match or safety that they really like they may not need to apply to a large number of schools.
Yes, Proudpatriot .that is exactly what I meant.
I think the student needs to answer the question…“should I apply to more reach schools”. If yes, then I would agree that the GC should not limit the number of reach schools or applications…if the STUDENT wants to apply to that many schools.
But some kids are very happy with a shorter list of more likely admissions. And they don’t want to apply to reach schools…at all…because they are perfectly happy with the match and safety schools on their lists.
Rebuttal to counselor:
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Many short answer questions are similar and a lot can be recycled. Not as much time as one would project by multiplying by number of schools.
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If diligent, many students can get free apps to the schools cutting down on costs. It’s also a family and personal decision as to whether money should be spent that way. By skipping a visit to a school, one can easily come up with enough to apply to many schools. Where we spent the money was on the visits
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Far away and expensive visits can be skipped and interest be shown by appearing at local appearance if any by the admissions officers of the schools and signing in, saying hello, making a schedule and emailing a few times to each, and writing a letter explaining that finances and family situation are such that a visit can’t be done.
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Most of us would rather have that stress, than too few. Watching kids and families in both situations right now, it seems to me that the ones with many accepts are ebuulient, giddy with joy. They’ll take that stress!
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With the computer, it’s not so difficult with FAFSA and PROFILE, data only has to be entered once for each for. See (8) about the cost.
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A responsible, interested adult (parent) helping with this and good organization can make this work. A valid point, however, and not something for a kid with organization and follow up issues to do alone as s/he does risk huge errors and mix ups as well as the time it takes to keep this straight. This sort of thing, in general, needs a motivated parent and student.
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THe vast majority of scholarships are automatically offered to all. As to the special ones, that is an incentive to apply to more schools; the possibility of getting more money. That is the work to do for possible PAY.
2)Yes, but this is all about the one student who has that choice. The colleges are inviting the student, the system makes it easy. When it reaches a critical mass, it is the responsibility of the colleges to make their limits and restricitions. Right now, there are students applying to many schools making this situation and not joining them is just making it better for them. IF this is indeed an issue, may as well bring it to the point where it is addressed.
- Absolutely not true for everybody. I now many who have applied to more than that and the 9th+ schools are the ones that were the best deals for them, and they would not have even been a possibility had the apps not been made to them. TO make such a statement, as statistical study has to be done where everyone does the 8 schools as this counselor recommends and then adds on however many other schools and then we see how much of a benefit that was on average, and also to individual students. To make such a broad sweeping claim with no proof s why I think so little of GCs.
I’m someone who thinks 10 is more than enough. JMO. I would give people the advice to not apply to more than 10. Of course, you are welcome to but a GC is there to give advice not to make decisions for you.
Apps take a lot of work. Senior year is busy enough without piling on a bunch of extra work.
Yes, cast a wide net, but IMO that can usually be done with less than 10 schools on your list. Of course, YMMV.
Top Reason to Apply to More than Ten Colleges:
Each of the 9 reasons cited by that guidance counsellor above are wrong. Every single one of them.
Several of those reasons (2, 3, 4 and 6) are patently stupid.
Top Reason HS GCs Tell You to Apply to Fewer Colleges:
Less work for the HS GC…
Northwesty…how do you figure? With computers these days, it’s not very time consuming to do ten counselor recommendations vs 5, or 20. And it certainly doesn’t take a lot longer to send transcripts and the like.
Ther are students who really do want to apply to a LOT of schools…for any number of reasons. If the OP’s daughter wants to apply to 20 schools…or whatever, fine. She should be able to do so. But if it is the parent who is pushing this, I would say the parent and child need to talk. Leave the GC out of the discussion.
If parent and student agree,…then so be it. Apply to as many schools as you want to.
But it will take student time…most of these schools have supplemental essays…the reach ones all seem to. And while maybe similar, they will need to be tweaked for each school.
Why 10, why not 8 or 12 or 15 or 6? My son’s friend’s school limits them to 6. In my current son’s particular situation, we just went for 7. For the last kid, I think we did about 15 apps, overdid it in that case because of very low test scores for the schools he wanted, and I wasn’t sure our strategy would work for getting acceptances. A very real chance of getting totally shut out. And then we had a $35K limit in parental contribution. Didn’t really trust Fairtest. It was overkill for both kids. This year my son got into both first and second choices, and in retrospect, that was all he needed to do. My current college kid got into 14 out of the 15 schools, two had second semester caveats, and some were unaffordable. I think we overdid it with him too, but no idea how we would have ordered the schools, and I would not have bet on him getting accepted to his main choices. Two kids I know who were stuck with the 6 school minimum were NOT well served this year. I think, statistically, they would have gotten into a school they preferred over their likelies had they had more to add to the list.
@cptofthehouse
Rebuttal to your rebuttal:
- If you are doing this for 15 schools where some have more than one supplement, it is still more time consuming than if you were to delicately craft a list. It is still extremely time consuming to do this to a bunch of schools.
- Spending is spending. I don't get your point. I am assuming you come from an upper middle class family. Most cannot afford visits or costly application fees.
- What you are advocating is still time consuming if you are applying to a lot of colleges. It is hard to demonstrate meaningful interest when you have a lot of schools you are trying to demonstrate interest for.
- That is because many of them haven't made their decisions. When you are actually at the specific college, I am sure that there is a fair share of students who encounter that 'What if' moment.
- Some schools have private financial aid applications. In addition, some schools require non- refundable housing application fees to be submitted before you even get your decision if you want to be guaranteed housing. (This happened to me at UF. Luckily, I was admitted.)
- I understand your response to essays, but I don't see how your point applies to interviewing . . . If you cram too much, you sound packaged and programmed and your words sound choreographed. If you approach it properly, but applied to a lot of schools, you run the risk of mixing up specific details and making errors.
- If anything, needing to apply to a lot of special scholarships is a deterrent from applying to a lot of schools. I don't see how you cannot include the schools in your list of 10 anyway.
- This is really a problem in general created by the common app. But, if more students shotgun, it will create a problem. There arent many students who take this approach, but if more than 1/2 of seniors begin doing this, acceptance rates will plummet. Schools like Stanford might have an acceptance rate closer to 1 or 2%
- I don't see how your response has anything to do with balance.
Obviously each individual case is different. But in general, these are great reasons to stay below 10.
@Northwesty K.
@cptofthehouse 10 is general. I’d say +/- 2 colleges.
Again, who is to say who can make the limits. For some students, as one can read, it 's worth the investment. If you increase the chances of getting a great fin aid, merit money deal, it can be well worth investment. If you can’t afford it, then just stick with the free school apps and those who qualify can get four free apps. If you want to “play the lottery” this way, it’s up to you, not the GC as to how you spend your own money. IF the 11th school is the jackpot, by restricting the number to 10, you lost out. My son’s friend got two schools, the last ones to which he applied, ones he threw into the pot because the short answers, apps, etc were easy and he got a free app code for one, are the ones offering fantastic merit aid, better than any of the others. So good, and because they are selective schools high in the 3 Rs of reputation, recognition and ratings, that they are now the top two contenders, knocking out the EA top choices. Southern Hope’s student got an great offer from the last, the 14th school on kid’s list. It happens, and statistically, the more lines cast, the better chances.
Frankly, for the most part, I do not choose to spend my time and stress over micromanaging this sort of thing, but, yes, it can pay. Also, my kids have the advantage of having a parent who has been interested and involved in college admissions for a long time. Others don’t and it’s their one shot. IF they want to go for it with lots of schools as possibilities, want to spend the money and the time, they certainly can. If their highschool permit them to do so, that is. My one son’s high school had limits, but I had no problem having them lifted by simply challenging them. For all schools, not possible nor are many parents and students willing to push the counselors and policies. As for some of your answers, they make no sense. Especially #1.
Staying below 10 seems unrealistic if the goal is a top (10) school unless the student’s record is extraordinary (compared to those accepted at the top 10 schools). I understand why schools make that suggestion. It is better for any given high school that students apply to as few colleges as possible given the caveat that they get into the best college that they can. It is best for “the greater good” by which I mean the entire senior class of a high school, if the top candidates apply ED and get in. But it is best for any individual student to apply broadly if they are shooting for very competitive schools. The goals for the high school are different than the goals for the individual student.And the reasoning has nothing to do with the idea that colleges set quotas for acceptance within schools. Each applicant sets the context within which to understand other applicants from the same school and it does that better than the school’s profile.
For the high school, having top students apply ED takes pressure off the pool. The issue is not that colleges won’t extend offers to more than one student at a given hs. Rather, the top student applying to a given high school provides the college with information about what students at that high school are capable of that year.
College X gets an application from an applicant in the top 10% of the class with 4 AP’s (5’s on each), a finalist in the local Math League competition and a member of the soccer team. LOR says that the school is so rigorous few are able to be in Math league, do sports and also take APs. The fact that this applicant was able to balance so much suggests he’s a top student. The applicant looks very strong, right?.
The next day College X gets another application from the same his. This applicant is in the top 8% of the class, was an AP Distinguished scholar by 10th grade, was a finalist in Math League, won the Intel Innovation Medal, was on the soccer team and has a string of awards and trophies from elite fencing competitions. This students makes the recommendation about the previous student look disingenuous. This candidate makes the other one look weak.
Schools don’t have quotas and will usually accept more than one applicant from a school if the applicants are very strong but they do compare applicants from the same high school. And a very strong applicant can make the others look weak.
I also want to add, that many more students are doing this now days. It’s made easier by the Common App, the use of paid independent admissions counselors, the online process, free offers by colleges for apps, computer apps. Many keep quiet about them doing this. I feel like the use of paid counselors and multi apps arguments are like what I heard about test prep years ago. Not supposed to do any good. Now it’s considered nearly mandatory. Or about the ACT. Now about half, maybe more kids are submitting those scores. Just watching what is happening from my bird’s eye view due to the spread of my kids over 15 years, and my involvement and interest in the college process, I am watching this evolve. There may come a time when it chokes up the system, but for now, those who are going this way are iikely to benefit. And the GC is behind the times, as always with these transitions. You think kids/parents tell the school counselor they hired their own? Used to be, one didn’t tell about test prep either.
Back in my day, the dark ages, every reference had to be typed or written out. Now it’s one narrative ref that goes in a file and a few strokes at the keyboard is all it takes to send out multiple apps. I applied to 7 schools in my day, and it was a major pain to do those apps. Hand written each one. My one reference would only do 3 schools, so I had to get another teacher to do the next batch of 4. I was lucky to have a counselor who fill out all the paper work by hand for me. It was a lot of work. It’s a piece of cake these days.
I can understand if HS counselors and teachers want to put a limit on the number of unique recommendations needed (or prioritized) for each student applying to colleges, so that a student applying to dozens of colleges does not crowd out the counselors’ and teachers’ time that needs to be shared with other students. Of course, if several schools use the same recommendations, then that should only count as one per recommender, and schools that do not require any recommendations should count as zero for the purpose of any such limit.
It is the case that students seeking competitive merit scholarships are likely to need a larger list, because there is less transparency in the selectivity of competitive merit scholarships than there is for admissions (i.e. it is harder to determine if a competitive merit scholarship is a reach or match than it is to do the same for admission to a school).
But any list, whether long or short, needs to be carefully considered, particularly at the safety end. Seems that lots of students give little thought to finding a safety that they like (and actually is a safety for both admission and cost), so we see lots of posts here about students getting rejected by their supposed “safeties” or being crushed by getting admitted only to their safeties.
It’s a self-perpetuating cycle.
Kids do more apps. So acceptance rates go down. Which means kids do even more apps in response to lower acceptance rates. Which makes acceptance rates go down even more. Penn used to have a 40+% acceptance rate; now it is 10%. It is dumb to think that isn’t going to change a kid’s application list.
Costs go up. Which means schools only become attend-able with significant need or merit aid. But you only find out the money after you apply and are accepted. Which means you have to apply to more schools in order to find the money schools that you can afford to attend.
Paper apps were a huge pain. The Common App makes so much more sense. But also makes applying so much easier. Which leads to more apps.
I applied to two colleges, which was fine back in the day. My last kid applied to 13, which was the right thing to do in this day and age. I could see my next one applying to even more.
The kids and parents aren’t driving the number of apps. The colleges and the system are. FYI, colleges really really like getting lots of apps. It gives them the opportunity to reject lots of apps and come up with a desire-ably low acceptance rate. If the HS GCs want fewer apps, they need to talk to the colleges. Not the kids and parents.
The other app driver is the nationalization/internationalization of the market for college. Back in the day, the Topeka HS valedictorian might only apply to KU. Today he applies to colleges from coast to coast. As does the valedictorian of Beijing HS. As does the valedictorian of Rio HS.