Courageous?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Air Force Academy - Colorado Springs
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<p>I thought I should start a topic because cc is quiet today. =P</p>

<p>So I was talking with someone (Hneedle ^^) on aim about courage and the academy. He like many agree that it is courageous to apply and attend an academy, but I would like to disagree. To be courageous in my opinion signifies that there is something to fear. What is there to fear? The only thing to fear during application is the rejection. Yes the biggest fear of my life besides death is rejection from the academies, but Im not really being that courageous. And as far as attending the academy goes… I am going to recieve the best training possible both mentally and physically. When I come out, I will have passed the necessary steps in becoming a premiere soldier of the world and a potential general of the future. And I will be equipped with top of the line planes to fly in combat. Of course this doesnt signify that I am invincible but it does never the less garantuees me that I am a dangerous force on the battlefield and that I am ready to take on anything. Hence, I believe the academy needs more of toughness/self-displine rather than courage. But me and Hneedle decided that it would be reasonable to use the words similarly so there really isnt a disagreement I guess. I was just bored and wanted to hear your thoughts. Please only comments with intent of being informative and friendly =P.</p>

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<p>i agree with what he's saying; we'll be the top notch once we graduate.. we'll have the best planes, crews, leadership, intel officers, everything. hopefully, we'll take advantage of all the opportunities there and become excellent officers.. i also agree that it requires toughness and self discipline.. i guess where i'm getting my spill about courage is that, to know the possibilities of what could happen after graduation, there's a fear of the unknown, fear of the possibilites.. just knowing that is enough to make me say that there's a certain amount of courage with applying, attending, and serving afterwards.. i'm lookin forward to this discussion :)</p>

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<p>Chris,</p>

<p>
[quote]
Hence, I believe the academy needs more of toughness/self-displine rather than courage

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I disagree, courage is how you will make it through. Courage is to fight for your desires when all of your chips are down. Self discipline is great and you will need it to get through everyday life, however, courage is what you will have to find within yourself when the worst obstacle is in your path and you will have to get pass it.</p>

<p>Toughness and self discipline are needed, but courage IMHO is needed more. I am an ADAF/DW with a DH who flies in a 2 seater, I want to know that the other person has the courage to make the right decision on a "run". </p>

<p>I expect that people will not get what I am saying, but I have seen courage and toughness in active duty members ...they are definetly 2 different things, I will go with courage</p>

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<p>If what im about say clearly shows I dont understand what you are trying to say ignore it completely, otherwise here I go. =D</p>

<p>Like I said, courage requires something to fear. But with strong selfdispline you will never panic and learn to adapt to any situation in order to make the best decisions possible.</p>

<p>Of course overcoming a fear is what courage is, but with the training I imagine you are about to go through I dont believe fear is truley there, rather there are inconviences you would rather avoid.</p>

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<p>I'm gonna have to agree with B&P on this one... I'd like to share one of my favorite courage quotes that you have probably heard before.</p>

<p>“Courage is resistance to fear, mastery of fear - not absence of fear” -Mark Twain-</p>

<p>And to argue Chris - I believe that an "inconvenience" is something that is not convenient to you (naturally), but therefore it gives a sense of uneasiness which could be interpreted as a fear (depending on the person of course). But I also think that fear can't really be defeated or overcome though, and perhaps requires self-discipline/toughness to get through, but it is an active factor in everything we do. That's why we wake up in the morning; its not because we have a toughness that will destroy the fear of failure, or fear of death that day, but that we must live with the fear of not waking up the next morning. And live with the fear of failing at the smallest task the next day.</p>

<p>So that turned out not to entirely agree with anyone... And it also seems a bit confusing... Apologies :)</p>

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<p>I'm with B&P and SE. Here at USAFA you may not be courageous in the sense you are thinking of, but doing the right thing, even when an easier way is open, is a courageous thing to do. </p>

<p>Also, I think you need courage as a commander to send your men into battle knowing they leave wife and children behind. The decisions as a commander require the courage to do what's right.</p>

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<p>I think deep down inside, "most" people who apply to the academy are courageous and they DO have something to fear. And deep down inside, they KNOW about these fears.</p>

<p>First fear is obviously the fear of not being accepted. Then there's the fear of failure. For many; especially the 85% +/- who have had very competitive lives prior to the academy, "Failure" is not something many of these people accept very well. As we move on, there is the fear of not fitting in. Deep down inside you know you are know going to be around thousands of people where most of which don't share your background, culture, school, past, etc....</p>

<p>Once you get past the initial social fears, there's there fear that you are going to lose so much of your past and who you are. There is so much truth to this and I believe that most applicants recognize this when they apply. They've read the stories and seen the movies. You are NOT going to be the same person that you were when you came in. The change you will go through that first semester will be more profound than what most of your friends will go through in their entire 4 years of college. If they even go to college. There is the fear of losing you friends back home, not having common ground even with your parents. The fear that the only thing you will have in common with anyone back home is the "PAST". (Which has a lot of truth to it).</p>

<p>Then, once you've dealt with your entire social, personal, and private life and the change that you know you will go through, there then comes the fears of the future. Will I graduate? If I do, can I live up to my commitment. The fear of what past friends and family will think of you if you don't make it through. Those are all concerns and yes fears. People have to feel that they belong. Until you've gotten through most of that first year, you don't really know if you truly belong. If you don't belong to a group, you will be afraid. The group is your support. Prior to accepting the appointment, your group was family and friends. Most of which you have known your whole life. There is a lot of fear there.</p>

<p>Finally, there is the fear that because you are going to be going into the military, that you could have to go to a war or battle some place. That you might have to KILL someone. That someone else might try to kill you. That movies like "Saving Private Ryan", "Behind enemy lines", etc... may actually have a lot of truth to it and that maybe you might be in that position.</p>

<p>Yes, applying and accepting a nomination to the academy; as well as the subsequent service on active duty, does require quite a bit of courage. There are plenty of things to be fear. However, it is how you handle that fear that makes you deserving of your country's pride and respect. Being afraid is good. It forces you to think logically as well as tactically. It makes you view more than one choice or option. Then again, that is what the academy is designed to do. Make you a leader. Teach you to think on your feet and to learn from each other. I definitely think that it takes a lot of courage to accept an appointment to the academy or join the military in general. Having many in our country disagree strongly with what you do and what you represent. Yet; they say all this standing in front of the freedoms that you have vowed to defend. There is a lot of courage inside of every appointee and cadet; as well as the enlisted forces who volunteer to serve in our military forces.</p>

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<p>Courage, also known as bravery, will and fortitude, is the ability to confront fear, pain, risk/danger, uncertainty, or intimidation. 'Physical courage' is courage in the face of physical pain, hardship, or threat of death, while 'moral courage' is the courage to act rightly in the face of popular opposition, shame, scandal, or discouragement.</p>

<p>I believe all of these things apply to anyone who attends a Service Academy. You will be tested no matter what your previous background, successes, or failures. As Christcorp said just attending will force you to face things your peers will never experience.</p>

<p>That said as a younger man I worked in a profession that many find synonamous with "Courage". I never thought of it that way though. Whenever I entered a fire I did so as I was trained. I was always respectfull of the danger faced. The training is what gave me the ability to do the job, and saved my life on more than one occasion.</p>

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<p>After I posted last night Bullet and I had a conversation about this topic about self-discipline or courage was more important. His sentiments are very similiar to ds52262.</p>

<p>Self discipline will help you to overcome the fear and be more courageous, but I stick by my original and hornet actually touched upon why:</p>

<p>
[quote]
Also, I think you need courage as a commander to send your men into battle knowing they leave wife and children behind. The decisions as a commander require the courage to do what's right

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This is not a happy thought, but we lived it on our first assignment when I was 9 mos pregnant with DS1, our squadron lost a jet. I can only imagine what was said, but here is the scenario that occured:</p>

<p>Wife gets a phone call from a friend located at another base saying it was on the news that a jet with a UH tail just went down. She immediately goes over to the O'Club to find their best friend. She tells him that she thinks its her DH. He tells her to calm down, and he'll get the info, he was sure it wouldn't be him. He calls relays that the wife is with him, they tell him you know we can't release the info because we are on lock down...he replies tell me now or I will come in and find out myself...they reply just find out where she will be...she obviously could tell by his face and said where she would b4 her friend could say anything at all.
No self discipline or toughness will ever teach you how to find the words to say to a wife and a new mother (baby was 6 weeks. old), we're sorry, but...to make matters worse she had to live through the night waiting to find out if he died...Courage is what is needed to survive that night.</p>

<p>For all of you at the AFA, he is home with you. Capt Cliff Massengill (afa 81) died 18 yrs ago this month and was buried at the Academy. Cliff had signed his papers to get out, only 3 days earlier and had a seperation date. Bullet was his crew mate, but fate intervened and he was taken off the schedule less than 18 hours prior to the flight...Our sponsor also had courage, because when he found out the news, he came over to our house expecting to hold my hand. I will never forget his face when Bullet answered the door.</p>

<p>Unfortunately, I have seen too many times that commanders had to find the courage for this situation...</p>

<p>Sorry if this bit of reality freaked anyone out, but remember fighting int a war, having the best intel, best planes,etc...doesn't negate the fact that accidents happen, and it courage that is usually found after you go through self-discipline and toughnes</p>

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<p>wow, I never thought about the whole fearing for others part... but in a way we are suppose to fear for others as it will be our duty to protect them with everything we are. So in that respect it further puts the responsibility on ourselves to lose all fear and just pick up a determination to get the job done. Of course as DS said, the training is what gets you there. So I guess my question to grads and officers would be, does the training kill the fear?</p>

<p>And in regards to the telling family members, I believe that is up to the person. A leader who honest to God loved his men and blames himself for the failure may have a hard time and requires courage, but a leader who realizes and understands the means of war may believe its just another day and he has to get his job done. Of course the latter is a complete bastard, but I am sure theres plenty of people in the military who are very apathetic like that. (I have no stats or evidence supporting that surenes=/) And when you look at the samurai or the knights of the feudal age, was it not the warriors ability to kill emotions that made them stronger? Of course thats my dad's method when training me for wrestling, I am not really sure how far that goes into warfare. =D</p>

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<p>
[quote]
So I guess my question to grads and officers would be, does the training kill the fear?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>You will never be fearless. The profession of arms is certainly one of the world's most difficult and trying occupations, and you'll likely never get to the point where you're completely comfortable (or even "apathetic") with all aspects of the job.</p>

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<p>OK, time to put my 2 cents in (usually what my opinion is worth :) ). </p>

<p>
[quote]
So I guess my question to grads and officers would be, does the training kill the fear?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Like PETKO says above, the profession you're about to enter will always be full of fears; fear of failure, fear of death, fear of killing the innocent, fear of being hurt, fear of the unknown, fear of letting you buddies down, and an infinite number more. You ask if training or self-discipline can overcome or drive fear away. One of the reasons your training throughout your career will be so intense and as realistic as possible is to make your reactions second nature. Facing an intense situation or difficulty, your training hopefully should kick in, guiding your reactions without hesitation or conscious thought.</p>

<p>Let me give an example of something that happened to this WSO. In the course of my time in the service, I have flown in some areas where the leaders there were not to happy to see my presence. One time, they decided to protest this fact rather bluntly. Over the radio my front-seater and I heard, in a very heavy British accent, the voice of someone else flying in the same vicinty telling the world in an rather excited voice "Miss-eye-el, MIss-eye-el!!! (my attempt to type out a very heavy British accent). No mention of where they were coming from, where they were right now, or how many. </p>

<p>Years of training for this scenario immediately kicked in. Poison (my front seater, also an AFA grad (91?)) went into "slightly agressive" evasive manuevers, I'm shooting out counter-measures and looking to make sure our wingman is not about to go Boom! Both of our heads on a swivel. We see the missile, and based on things we have and the missiles exhaust, it's obviously not heading for my Number Two. No, it's heading for us! More manuevers, more counter-measures, some radio calls, and a few seconds later we see it overshoot. Back in the game, where's #2? Any more missiles? (two others but not guiding on anyone, they go harmlessly straight up) Which direction should we direct the strike package (I was MIssion Commander after all, and responsible for every coalition jet in a 400 mile radius, I should at least let them know). OK, everything is back to normal-ish, time to press on. Total time from the Brit radio call to this point: about 30 seconds. </p>

<p>Was I scared? I can't remember, I was too busy at the time. Was I scared at 30 seconds + 1 sec, now that I had time to think about what just happened? Well, it was a long night trying to get to sleep, filled with some really bad thoughts. But the point is the training kicked in. </p>

<p>Now, that's what the training is for, making you do the things you need to do at that exact moment, not having to think about it. But what about the guy ready to charge a hill? Or the submariner playing hide and seek with the enemy? Or the tank driver about to "cross the berm" into bad guy controlled territory? Or the paratrooper holding a static line in his hand waiting for the green light? Or the wrestler about to face the State Champion watching the match just prior to his? There will be plenty of situations when you have the time to think about what you're about to do. Does self-discipline get you through it, yes. Does dedication get you through it. Sure. But isn't the courage to face these doubts and bad thoughts just as important. Definetly!</p>

<p>Please excuse my "No s@#*, there I was..." story, if it sounds like I'm bragging or trying to sound cool. Believe me, it wasn't cool at the time, just doing a part of my job (Ds52262 will tell you the same thing, and I honestly don't know if I can run into a burning building like he does, he has my upmost respect). I'm just trying to tell you they are all important, pretty much equally. You can have plenty of self-discipline to train every day, get yourself ready for any situation, but if you don't have the courage to face your fears, whatever they be, does the training really matter?</p>

<p>I'm also glad Pima reminded me that Cliffy is there in eternal rest with his brothers in C. Springs. If DS gets there this summer, I'll have to visit him to pay my respects. I'll be the one standing alone by his tombstone, saluting and crying simultaneously.</p>

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<p>wow that was actually a thrilling story but I have a couple questions:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>What is a WSO?</p></li>
<li><p>What was the #2 referring to?</p></li>
<li><p>Who and why was shooting at you? (If you do not mind telling me ^^)</p></li>
</ol>

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<p>I'll leave 2 and 3 to Bullet himself, but to save him some time, here's number 1:</p>

<p>(From Wikipedia</a>)</p>

<p>"In the United States Air Force, the Weapon Systems Officer ("WSO", pronounced "wizzo") is an air navigator directly involved in all air operations and weapon systems of the aircraft (fighter or bomber). The WSO integrates with the pilot to collectively achieve and maintain crew efficiency, situational awareness and mission effectiveness. In United States Air Force (USAF) fighter aircraft such as the F-15E Strike Eagle, or the F-16D or F-16F Fighting Falcon the WSO can pilot the aircraft when required although this is typically during non-tactical portions of the mission (e.g., returning to base). When designated mission commander (MC), the WSO is also responsible for all phases of the assigned mission."</p>

<p>There's a lot more info in the article. Google prevails.</p>

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<p>zachogden's link pretty much answers the WSO question (but Wikipedia fails to mention how ruggedly handsome we all are (except the female WSOs, who all resemble Jennifer Beal), charismatic, and all blessed with an inate ability to win at everything we do, especially golf! :) )</p>

<p>Q2: What is this mysterious #2 I mention above. First, he's not the guy with the eye patch who works for Dr. Evil. Basically, pratically every fighter operates in the basic 2-ship formation. It's called mutual support, we stay in a tactical formation, "looking out" for each other and supporting each other in every phase of flight. One aircraft is the flight lead (#1), who is responsible for leading both aircraft tactically and through navigation (getting us safely there and back home). The number 2 aircraft is the "wingman", who's first responsibilty is not to hit #1 ( :) ), and act as #1's support. You start of in your flight career as a wingman, and as you gain more experience you get checked out as a flight lead. More complex missions call for 4-ships, with an even more qualified pilot leading all four aircraft. </p>

<p>So, in the scenario I mentioned, when I asked "Where's #2?", I was talking about regaining situational awareness on my wingman's status.</p>

<p>Q3: Won't go into too many details, but it was during the late 90s, when the US kept watch over "No Fly Zones" in certain parts of the world. They didn't like us being there, and showed it often.</p>

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<p>I understand those areas dont mind and are more than happy to fire at you, but how is it that wars are not starting? Can a pilot easily die during a surveillance mission and we live on like it never happend?</p>

<p>And how do I quote?</p>

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<p>Who wants to start a war. They are ugly, expensive, and tragic endeavors. </p>

<p>


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<p>
[quote]
I understand those areas dont mind and are more than happy to fire at you, but how is it that wars are not starting? Can a pilot easily die during a surveillance mission and we live on like it never happend?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Short answer: little to no media attention on the event back here in the States</p>

<p>And with no loss of aircaft or lives on our side for that long a period, it stayed that way.</p>

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<p>


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<p>LAME, I am more of a Gwen Stefani type =P.</p>

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<p>our family counts as a special friend an F-16 pilot who was on a similar mission in the 90's over an east european country that did not appreciate his presence. During his mission a SAM site targeted and fired on his flight. His mission required him to turn into the SAM site and destroy it. He earned a Silver Star, but even today I doubt you could pry the story from him. I am not sure he would call it a courages act, but many around him would. I do think it was the training and reaction to the threat he acted on. </p>

<p>If you make it to BCT during one of those endless briefings you will hear his story. Potter couldn't say anyhing when they mentioned him, but had a little moment of "Hey I know Him" during the brief. So when you hear about that '88 grad remember "Blink" as a hero, even if he would say the honor belongs to someone else.</p>