Quick question: D25 Plans on majoring in civil engineering, but is really hung up on HS class rigor. How important is it really? The key question is that she really enjoys Fashion and wants to take the fashion electives, but is worried that not taking all AP classes possible will hurt her. I just hate her not taking classes that she enjoys just to load up on APs in subjects she doesn’t enjoy–I know its early, but I think her schedule is tough enough and 2 more APs won’t make that big of a difference. Her proposed schedule below, thoughts (recognize there is a lot more to it than class rigor, but that is the focus of our discussion)?
9:
ENGLISH 1-HONORS
BIOLOGY-HONORS
GEOMETRY-HONORS
ALGEBRA II-HONORS
LATIN I
INTRO TO ENG. DESIGN
FASHION & CLOTHING I
HEALTH/PE I
10:
ENGLISH II-HONORS
CHEMISTRY-HONORS
PRE-CALCULUS-HONORS
US HISTORY I-HONORS
LATIN II-HONORS
AP-COMPUTER SCI PRINCIPLES
AP-ECONOMICS
HEALTH/PE II
11:
AP LANG
AP PHYSICS I
AP US HISTORY
AP CAL AB
LATIN III-HONORS
PRINC. OF ENG. DESIGN
FASHION & CLOTHING III
HEALTH/PE III
12:
AP ENG LIT
AP PHYSICS C
AP CALC BC
AP LATIN
WORLD CULTURES-HONORS
ENG. DESIGN & DEV
FASHION & CLOTHING III (OR INTERIOR DESIGN)
HEALTH/PE IV
That’s plenty strong. There might be a school or two that would care, but most won’t. There are SO many good options for good engineering programs that I wouldn’t let it stop her from doing what she wants. The fashion design could inform her engineering design too.
On that note, has she considered architectural engineering? It might be worth a look. WHat schools is she interested in?
Our son is an engineer. He graduated from a selective college program. He didn’t take AP Bio because it wasn’t germane to his interests and he didn’t like the instructor. He took AP Art History instead. He did take AP Chem though along with OChem/BioChem.
Good luck to her, and props to her for not getting suckered by the admissions game.
Based on the experience of having one college junior (EE/CS) and one HS senior (applying now to engineering programs - Civil/Arch/MechE), I would say this schedule is plenty rigorous and, in fact, is a lot of classes. The upside to it (in addition to the obvious) is that it shows her interest/passion in something that is important to her regardless of what she wants to study in college. I think that is a plus in the admissions process. If the schedule gets a bit much at any time, there is very little downside to dropping down in rigor in English, Social Studies, or Language unless she is hoping to get into the most selective of colleges. Since she is so early in HS, her interests/thoughts may change, and this is fine too. The most important thing is to make it through HS without losing your joy of learning and figuring out what interests and is important to you. The admissions game is not one worth playing!
I agree that it looks plenty rigorous to me too but the person you really need to ask is the HS guidance counselor. They will be the person indicating if your child has taken the most rigorous courses available to them in comparison to their classmates. For highly selective colleges, that will be important.
I see no issue with the schedule. If you replaced the fashion classes with something like band, nobody would even bat an eye. Life is too short to not do the things you like. The only time I would even start to worry about it was if she was in one of the hyper competitive schools in Texas and was worried about class rank.
This is plenty rigorous for applying to engineering programs or any top program if plans change. She is still young and this gives her a lot to explore.
The engineering class this year will help her decide further. If her high school offers additional engineering classes in the PLTW strand those look to be in that may help her further decide her interests. Some HSs offer the PLTW Civil Engineering class.
If she loves fashion there are many fields that combine Enginneering and the world of fashion. She may decide she wants to look at chemical engineering and material science and design fabrics for future generations. She may want to look at swapping out for AP Chem. Wearable technology will continue to evolve and the PLTW Digital Electronics class may be of interest. There are also some cool programs focused on manufacturing.
Good luck! My D21 is loving her first semester in Engineering in college after some similar classes in HS.
Minimum high school preparation for entering an engineering major:
Math through precalculus – student has calculus BC.
High school physics – student has AP physics C.
High school chemistry – student has chemistry.
High school English – student has AP English language and AP English literature.
Other typical high school college-prep courses – student has 4 social studies courses (including an AP level course), AP level foreign language, and art (assuming fashion counts).
Bonus that is even better:
Calculus – student has that.
Advanced level physics, chemistry, and/or English – student has AP physics and English.
Introductory engineering to get an idea of what engineering is like – student has that.
Thanks for all the responses. This is our oldest so it is our first time through the process.
I will try to address all of the comments in order.
–Architecture is a possibility, she said she wants to take it senior year, but won’t have the prerequisites due to PLTW taking up 4 of her elective spots. But if she really want’s to take it I may push for them to consider waiving her in due to the PLTW experience.
–She does not have a list of schools yet, but wants to have choices when the time comes. She has been to a few schools through sports camps and knows she does not want a small school. We are touring a couple schools (one large state university and a mid sized private) while we are on vacation this fall. When we said would you rather go to a good school or get a car, she picked good college.
–Agree interests might change, junior year will be when she needs to reassess as the classes next year are pretty well set except for the level. They give a hard sell on PLTW that once admitted it is a 4 year commitment as you are taking someone else’s spot. That leave her only 1 spot to choose herself (Economics–business requirement).
–Agree on counselor–but it is a typical high volume public school and I don’t think they meet until the Spring
–Our PLTW is very small and until this year you didn’t even have choices in the classes, now there are two classes to choose from sophomore year. No digital electronics or civil engineering. I didn’t even know those classes existed.
–AP Chem is a second year chemistry class in her school. She needs to complete regular chemistry prior to taking AP. She would have to drop the F&C or either Latin, Physics or Calc–the History/World Culture/English are required.
–Her concern is that other kids will have more APs. We are trying to tell her she will do fine and that if she really enjoys fashion she should take it. Plus other than Chem (or maybe Stats), I’m not sure an engineering school would care about the other APs she could take like Euro/World History or Psychology
Why does she think other kids will have more than 10 APs? At our high school no one has that many - even the kids who are at the very top of the class. Some schools don’t even have APs. It seems like she is creating a problem that doesn’t exist.
The great news is that engineering, especially civil, is very egalitarian. According to College Scorecard, the only source of non-self-reported data that I know of, the following schools are all in the top 30. There are blue-bloods right there with Podunk U. In no particular order are the schools and median wages at 2 year. Neither MIT or Stanford have enough data to have salaries listed. They’d be similar though for Civil, because they aren’t out of line for ME. CS…different story.
$67K U Conn
$74K SMU
$69K Cal State Chico
$73K Cornell
$71K UC Berkeley
$68K UCLA
$72K Rice
$74K USC
Note that the College Scorecard numbers are derived from W-2 and self employment income of those who received federal financial aid. This means that they exclude students from moneyed families, but that may be more realistic for typical students who do not have advantages that some of those from moneyed families have (e.g. connections).
Indeed. All sources of salary data have flaws. Self reported data to places like PayScale bias high. Those with low salaries don’t have incentive to report it. As long as everyone understands the methodology they can weigh the value.
That is not needed, but I know it is hard to convince them. There are too many stories of kids taking on far too much on these threads. Your instincts are great and you are asking the right questions.
It sounds like the high school is putting a lot of pressure on figuring out HS requirements based on 8th grade plans. Advocate for her evolving needs and teach her to do the same. My daughter realized she wanted to do the engineering track going into 10th grade and upended all of her previous plans. That is ok. Keep supporting her interests.
First off she should take the classes she enjoys. Fashion could set her apart if used wisely. Taking drawing classes in design of any type could be helpful. As stated above materials engineering and fashion could go hand in hand. Something to look into at least.
The most APs doesn’t win. It’s not just about taking APs it’s about doing well in them also. No one is counting up all the APs. Yes, she is compared to students in her school but don’t keep up with the Joneses. Few if any schools will care.
If she’s a creative kid then use that to her advantage. Separating herself from the pack will hold up better then just taking Ap courses.
That’s super strong. In fact I would remove AP Lit from the 12th grade schedule and replace it with Honors English 12. The big ones for her proposed path are math&physics, and she has Calc AB-BC+Physics1+C, so she’s good.
7 classes per semester is a lot, BTW.
She doesn’t need AP Econ in 10th grade since she already has US History Honors, but if it’s offered to sophomores and she’s interested, it’s not a problem. Or she could take another elective.
Right now, her schedule allows her to pivot easily from STEM to selective Social Science/Business majors.
The only thing is Latin (French or Italian might have matched her interests in Fashion&Design better and if she attends a college where engineers are encouraged to study abroad like GeorgiaTech it may restrict her options not to have a spoken world language) but if she likes it as well as Ancient Cultures, it’s not a problem at all rigor-wise.
There is lots of great advice here, but I think you should talk to the counselor at the school and see if this is “most rigorous” for the HS. It certainly seems like a lot of difficult courses and checks the box for many known hard APs. However–just an alternative view of it: if Engineering/design is not seen as a “core” course, then there are only 5 core courses per year. In some high schools, including ours, well over 10% of kids have 6 Hon/AP core courses per year in 10th-12th, so they take two maths or two sciences or two histories at the Hon/AP level. Engineering/Design is a regular “elective” in the HS.
Not I. AP Lit was one of my son’s favorite classes. Now a BS/MS ME, it along with AP Art History, really helped round him. There’s lots of reading, but it’s a deeply satisfying course if you let it be.
I’m just thinking in terms of course rigor and just… time.
AP Lit, AP Art History, etc, are really interesting courses, but taking AP Lit would mean removing something from the senior schedule or not being able to do a good job on apps. From a practical point of view, AP Lit can be replaced with a rigorous English class, whereas other classes cannot easily be replaced.
Normally 4 APs would be fine, but 8 classes a day is A LOT (assuming this is a 9-period school, 8 classes + lunch is already a lot of time in class, hopefully it doesn’t mean no lunch or zero period - zero period is horrendous for teens’ biological needs.) AP Calc and AP Physics can’t be removed so what would be?
English Honors is a possible satisfying substitute that can be very interesting too. I guess it’s just a personal choice as to how to balance the schedule: keeping AP Calc and AP Physics C, Engineering, and Fashion (classes the student really wants to take), making sure to have 1 each of English and History/Social Science, one could imagine cutting AP Latin rather than AP English Lit, assuming reaching Level 3 would be ok for Engineering (unless Latin Honors IV exists). It’d depend on what the student prefers.
I’m assuming, of course, that PE is a graduation requirement.
