Court Overturns Michigan Affirmative-Action Ban

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Michigan
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<p>I guess I’ll throw in my two cents about this:</p>

<p>AA is only one factor in the equation.</p>

<p>It’s not like every minority that applies to gets in. You also can’t say they wouldn’t have gotten in because of lower stats. If schools only admitted the top people based solely off of “merit,” then their average GPA would be 4.0, and their standardized test scores would be perfect, but they’re not. </p>

<p>Is it fair that colleges look at what state you live in to help your chances? By definition, IS/OOS aren’t fair then. Is it fair that people receive different treatment just because of where they live? </p>

<p>Is it fair to give an edge because somebody had a parent attend their school? After all, schools should focus on the student’s merit, and nothing else, right?</p>

<p>Say what you want, but AA is just one factor in the scheme of things. As unfortunate as it is, colleges can admit pretty much whoever they want. If you don’t like it, nobody is forcing anyone to apply there. If a minority gets in, it certainly isn’t due to race alone. URMs that apply won’t get an acceptance letter on a silver platter, and have to earn it like everyone else. Once in college, they still have to put in just as much work as everyone else if they want to be successful academically. There are too many other factors to determine just how much influence AA has. </p>

<p>To those that dislike the fact that it benefits wealthy minorities, but still harms groups such as Asians and Whites in poor areas, remember how many wealthy minorities fit into this category compared to poor ones. Same goes for the other races. the number of wealthy URMs is far inferior to that of other races. This is not to say that there aren’t poor asians and rich URMs, there aren’t as many people falling into this category. This doesn’t even take into account different age groups, and the fact that not all of them will be applying to colleges, that not all of them applying will be accepted, and that not all of them will be applying to very competitive schools. It isn’t fair to go with anecdotes on this one as many people on CC go to very good high schools and as such, will be exposed to more wealthy people, and in that minorities. The results will end up being skewed. </p>

<p>Source:<a href=“http://www.census.gov/prod/2010pubs/p60-238.pdf[/url]”>http://www.census.gov/prod/2010pubs/p60-238.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>As much as we try to make it into a “perfect” system, college admissions are too volatile to determine if someone can get in or not. This debate has been going on for some time now, and colleges won’t let just anybody into their school. If you got in, you got in. </p>

<p>It’s like it says on University of Michigan’s admissions page: “Admissions is more art than science: the admissions process is designed to consider all aspects of an applicant’s record and experience and is not intended to admit applicants solely on the basis of grade point averages, test scores, or any other single criterion. The University recognizes that there is great variation among its applicants’ personal circumstances, home communities, and high schools, including those schools’ course offerings and grading practices. Therefore, reviewers have the opportunity and responsibility to consider a comprehensive range of factors in evaluating applications and to admit applicants who both are academically qualified and have demonstrated their potential to contribute to, and be successful students at, the University of Michigan.”</p>

<p>Source:[Office</a> of Undergraduate Admissions: Application Review](<a href=“http://www.admissions.umich.edu/prospective/prospectivefreshmen/appreview.php]Office”>http://www.admissions.umich.edu/prospective/prospectivefreshmen/appreview.php)</p>

<p>As noted before, this isn’t directed at anyone specifically, these are just my thoughts on the matter. So don’t get mad as if I directed this specifically at you. I tried to address a few common points that come up against it. If you don’t like it, several colleges have a “prefer not to answer” choice when prompted with the question of your ethnicity. </p>

<p>I’m not in full support of AA, and I hope in time it focuses more on Socio-economic need rather than just racial, but trying to sort through such a large number of applicants and determine whether or not they are in such need is a difficult process, and it will likely come in time. But I guess such is the way of college admissions. The world isn’t fair, and AA tries to even things up a bit. I’m not chalking this up to slavery, nor am I going to bring in some anecdote which just happens to illustrate my point perfectly. Everyone seems to have those kinds of anecdotes, and they always make good points with no proof whatsoever. </p>

<p>I’m not here to fight with anyone, but if you actually want to have a legitimate debate with me on this (that means free of the racial accusations, free of the BS and insults that always storms these types of threads, and free of other crap), feel free to PM me. </p>

<p>I’ve come to the conclusion that 95% of posts on CC will eventually devolve into an argument. If you can’t as much as respect an opinion different from yours, then you shouldn’t debate about such controversial topics. </p>

<p><em>moves back and holds up flame shield</em></p>

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<p>^^ Bravo!!!</p>

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<p>Well then mj, quit whining that I have AA and you don’t</p>

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<p>And woah woah, I don’t resent white people of today, that’s not what I’m saying. I am trying to articulate that we should focus on making the entire SYSTEM more equal. That is all</p>

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<p>@xSlacker:
Why do you presume that only URMs face discrimination? I attended a school where I was one of only two Asian students. At this school, though a few of my white peers looked down upon me because of my Asian status, I was outright harassed by many other black peers DAILY. These black peers used racial slurs and physical abuse to harass me EVERY day. Ironically, these same black peers received affirmative action. Note that these black peers were more racist than any of my other peers. THEY discriminated against ME on the basis of race. Why did these peers deserve a boost from affirmative action? Sure they might have received discrimination for being black, but they also discriminated against others (other white, Middle Eastern, etc. students, not just me). Do NOT tell me that these are the only black people who discriminate on the basis of race. Black racism does exist and it is more prevalent than society is generally willing to accept, though, of course, not all blacks are racist. Yet, ALL blacks, racist themselves or not, receive help from affirmative action. Despite all of this, I do NOT want to receive a boost from affirmative action; I want affirmative action to be abolished. Instead of receiving help from affirmative action, I am hurt by affirmative action. How do you justify this? I receive(d) discrimination but did not (and do not want to) receive help from affirmative action, why should you?</p>

<p>p.s. this is not my account</p>

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<p>@jojouhgogo please do not use such words as “whining” when you have nothing to say because that degrades this thread. This is a DEBATE, not some mudslinging conversation. so please do not try to do that. i was not whining. i just believe that a system that discriminates based on race should not exist, especially because race is not the issue anymore. i do not believe people who get preferential treatment because of the color of their skin. i do, however, believe that not all people who apply to colleges should be judged the same because we come very different schools, areas, and socio economic backgrounds. if an area is underfunded and has a crappy school system with some students who happen to be black they should get a boost but so should all the other kids even if they are white or asian. people from all races are poor, have limited educational resources, and have traumatic things happen to them and to deny those people the ability to go to a good school is wrong while we systematically help others who should not receive such treatment.</p>

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<p>So if I go to a good high school. Take a full honors/AP load. Do great on the ACT/SAT. Participate in ECs. Etc. I should be below an inner city kid that got an ok GPA in the easier classes, has less ECs and lower test scores because they <em>might</em> have done better than me in my situation?</p>

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<p>On the flip side, if that same kid ended up in a bunch of crap classes because the school can’t afford honors/AP, he does pretty good, or very well on the ACT, but is limited in his ECs because of the condition of the school and his area, he should be considered <em>less</em> than you? He’s not on an even field with you. Even if he didn’t get it, higher stats don’t always guarantee admissions. That spot wasn’t reserved for you. Nobody knows if they’re getting into a college or not.</p>

<p>situations like this are why many schools look in the context of your school instead of a universal standard; many people don’t end up getting the same opportunities, so it isn’t fair to those with fewer options.</p>

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<p>What is the school’s opinion on affirmative action? I was under the impression that universities approve of AA because they don’t want a school full of only whites and asians. Diversity is a major attraction and boasting point for these schools. Sounds like the AA haters are fighting a losing battle.</p>

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<p>Judging from the fact that Michigan still decided to cling to the AA for Law school, I’d say they’re for it. If they didn’t like it, they wouldn’t have still tried to use it for the law school students.</p>

<p>I also found an article on AA by Rafeal Bras, the Department Head of Civil and Environmental Engineering at MIT at the time this was written. Please note that these are his words and not mine. I don’t know much on him, so I don’t know his current circumstance. </p>

<p>[Arguments</a> against affirmative action are ‘nonsense’ - MIT News Office](<a href=“http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/1998/brasopin-0603.html]Arguments”>Arguments against affirmative action are 'nonsense' | MIT News | Massachusetts Institute of Technology)</p>

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<p>You can’t admit kids based on “what if”</p>

<p>No **** the spot wasn’t reserved for me, or anyone else (except URMs apparently)? I am saying I should be considered more qualified than the other student.</p>

<p>If the inner city student can do equal ir better than me then sure, they deserve to be more qualified than me. Plus I’m sure they’ll have tons of “diversity” stuff to write about in essays.</p>

<p>Umich loves diversity. Its like a drug to them</p>

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<p>I was just pitching a counterpoint man, no need to be so rude about it…You never learn as much from hearing people of the same viewpoint. But when you make say things like “I should be considered more qualified than the other student,” that leads me to that conclusion. Such people still have much more character to them than just writing “diversity stuff.” Anyway, there’s no point in arguing about this anymore since we all have our beliefs, and I doubt either of us are gonna give in any time soon. It’s the court decision, and the school’s approach to this is all that matters, no matter how we all feel about it.</p>

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<p>I’m not going to read through all 200+ post, but I’m pretty sure MOST people do not understand how AA works. When a black person is applying to UMich they are not going to be going against Asians and whites they are going to be going against other black students. If UMich’s acceptance rate is like 30%, they may take maybe the top 30% of black applicants. This goes the same way for whites, asians and hispanics. I’m tried of people spewing out false info about affirmative action. If you are white or asian and you didn’t get accepted to UMich or any other top school you only have 2 people to blame: Yourself for being one of the weakest applicants in your racial group and the other white/asian applicants who were stronger applicants than yourself. </p>

<p>I still don’t understand why whites are against AA. If there was no AA, UMich or any other top school will have 50-60% Asians/Indians, 15-20% whites (mostly European/Foreign born, since we all know the American school systems sucks compared to our European counterparts) and around 20-25% black Africans(especially Nigerians and Ethiopians) and foreign born hispanics. Without AA, most top schools in the US would be up to 80% international, so consider yourselves lucky we have it.</p>

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<p>I don’t want to jump into this mess, but I read Blackwolf’s article from post 210 and replaced the words “affirmative action” with “holistic approach” and it at least equally as much sense to me that way. I feel that this substitution improves some of the posts from this thread too, heh.</p>

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<p>zo, theres a major problem.</p>

<p>1) thats not how AA works necessarily, and the system Michigan had that was challenged was a points based system that had a very explicit benefit to some minority groups, thereby increasing the amount who got in.</p>

<p>Either way, people will always have a problem with AA because it gives importance to a criteria that under fair circumstances would be ignored.</p>

<p>The method of AA is largely a result of goals (which in themselves are still vague); Equal opportunity and equal outcome.</p>

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<p>Ladies and Gentlemen, I present to you, the most poorly conceived posts in this thread! I facepalmed at least a dozen times reading through this thread, but these were so-bad-its-funny.</p>

<p>“because whites are far and away the most racist group by a hundredfold”-rhythmgaming, post 121, page 9</p>

<p>the single most ironic post in this thread. use racism to point out the racism of another race! :p</p>

<p><a href=“http://playtheracecard.ytmnd.com/[/url]”>http://playtheracecard.ytmnd.com/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>“Why? This country is a republic. That’s what republic do. Protect the minority group from the majority”- xslacker, post 129, page 9.</p>

<p>Hi! History and political science major here. The simple answer is ha no. Short explanation is that the founders were quite afraid of majority AND minority oppression. There are safeguards against both. Read “The Federalist” some time, ya might learn something.
BONUS: A quote from the very wikipedia quote you used to support your point: “Both (refering to a republic and parlimentary democracy” are considered liberal democracies because they protect individual liberty from majority AND minority forces, while retaining some democratic elements" emphasis mine.</p>

<p>“You forget that the police were essentially the strong arm of the KKK”- xslacker. post 110, page 8</p>

<p>here we see a lovely ad hominem logical fallacy: equating the entire police force of the pre-civil rights era with a radical terrorist group. wonderful logic there chief.</p>

<p>“I’m saying that the world is not perfect and that we all have to deal with inequalities. AA may not be pristine, but since it’s helping people like me get into college and good colleges at that, I am finding a hard time deeming it as completely corrupt and worthy of abolishment”-jojouhgogo, post 46 page 4.</p>

<p>Watch this.</p>

<p>“I’m saying that the world is not perfect and that we all have to deal with inequalities. slavery may not be pristine, but since it’s helping people like me get a better standard of living for me and my family, I am finding a hard time deeming it as completely corrupt and worthy of abolishment”- Slave owner, circa 1854</p>

<p>That should say it all about mister jojou’s argument.</p>

<p>“(in response to question “do you seriously think schools would become racist without AA?”)” Maybe, maybe not. That’s to much to gamble on though isn’t it. Not all schools had bad histories. Not all people are racist. If AA were to be slowly disbanded then schools would have to prove themselves. Some of course already have proven themselves…"-xslacker, post 145 page 10</p>

<p>Hmmm the paranoia is strong with this one! “IF THE SCHOOLS DON’T HAVE AA THEN THEY WILL BE RACIST AIEEEE!” Classic logical fallacy of “slippery slope”. By this point you should note that xslackers arguments have more logical fallacies than a drunk lax bro.
It completely ignores the fact that the schools will still make sure to play up diversity and favor URM’s because to not do so would risk crazy law suits and put a black mark on their name. Seriously folks, ease up on the racial paranoia. The media preaches racial tolerance (a good thing, don’t get me wrong) school textbooks teach about the evils of jim crow and slavery, and a black man is president. The days of institutionalized racism are dead in america, and so help me if someone brings up some obscure law from a backwoods southern town I will have an aneurysm. </p>

<p>“Fair enough. You go find ONE black or Hispanic kid and ask them if they’ve NEVER endured racism. Just find one and I’ll concede the point”-xslacker, post 91, page 7</p>

<p>I know of at least 5. I cannot speak for more beyond that, though I likely could find more. do you concede the point?</p>

<p>“Show me on African-American, to which we know you are referring, that has had to “WORK LESS” to succeed…”-xslacker, post 62, page 5</p>

<p>The only black kid from my prep high school (there were only four total in my class, so chill) that got into michigan was by far the worst student of those accepted in terms of test scores, gpa, work ethic, and more. she came from the same (or better) educational and financial background as the others, did worse, but still got in over better qualified applicants. FAIL.</p>

<p>and the winner of the “so wrong its hilarious” post is…</p>

<p>XSLACKER! with this gem from post 67 on page 5…</p>

<p>"And to be honest… If you grew up upper middle class and received a 3.8 and 30 ACT in a nice suburban school and a minority grew up poor in a bad neighborhood at a clearly subpar school and receives say a 3.0 and a 24 on the ACT it’s my position that he IS a better student than you and that given the chance to be in YOUR environment will surpass your performance… "</p>

<p>That’s right ladies and gentlemen, the student with a gpa that is .8 higher (in more difficult classes) and 6 points higher on the ACT WILL be outperformed if the other student is put in those harder classes. BECAUSE THAT MAKES SENSE DANG IT. (nevermind the fact that this is a socioeconomic difference, not a racial one, unless xlsacker is actually implying the minority will always achieve more on an equal playing field. In that case, have fun with your black superiority! cause we know it can’t be racist if it’s against white people! :)</p>

<p>I leave you with this:
<a href=“http://magicrace.ytmnd.com/[/url]”>http://magicrace.ytmnd.com/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>if you want to know what getting rid of AA does look at berkeley. ~43% Asian(but a lot of asians live in california, unlike michigan) 32% white, 12% hispanic(large number of hispanics in california), 4% black(low # of blacks), 1% native american, and 3% international. </p>

<p>@zo there will NEVER be a time when a PUBLIC university in america will be 80% international students. the abolishment of AA has no effect on the fact that michigan public schools give preferences to instate students and then to OSS and the international students have to claw there way in. also, your version of how you incorrectly think AA works would be the worst thing to happen to higher education with many unqualified applicants receiving spots solely based upon their race.</p>

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<p>andre that was funny, I’m happy I stayed up for that.</p>

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<p>I mean stayed up and saw that…</p>

<p>… I stayed up because of</p>

<p>1.) Illness
2.) Cracked.com</p>

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<p>mjmay7, is it fair to give special preferences to legacies?</p>