<p>
[quote]
Obviously there are always exceptions
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The entire city of Detroit is an exception then. That's a pretty large exception if I do say so myself.</p>
<p>good education: HS diploma+</p>
<p>"that kind of money"--depends on where you live, and it can vary GREATLY depending on your connections. Where I'm from, hotels go from $20/night, houses go from $600 a month, apartments/flats/duplexes go from $350 a month in the ghetto. </p>
<p>"that kind of money" in this case, could be anywhere from $100+ a day, up into the thousands. </p>
<p>"I guarantee you that if you get a job at minimum wage, show up every day and bust your butt you won't be making minimum wage for long." Yeah, you're right, only the white kids in the suburbs get stuck with employers like WalMart who won't give them 40 hrs a week or more than $7 an hour. Haha, and for the record, many jobs in the ghetto are under the table. People get screwed ALL the time, and this is just another example where you don't go tattle-taling to
the cops (not that they'd give a damn anyway, but hey); you take care of justice YOURSELF.</p>
<p>"The entire city of Detroit is an exception then. That's a pretty large exception if I do say so myself." Funny you should say that; that is where I grew up! Just moved to Wisconsin two months ago. It's my experience in Detroit (yea, as a white kid, and there were plenty of us but that's not the point!) that I've been speaking on throughout this convo.</p>
<p>ASC, that would make you a pariah on society and if you get caught I hope you pay for the crime.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Hmmm, and what do you suppose that mom is shelling out per hour to her babysitter???? Try--$7 an hour, and that's assuming that she doesn't get stuck paying even more for a daycare center!
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Where is dad? Purposely my wife has always worked 3rd shift and I worked days so that we could get ahead. Otherwise it would have been pointless (as you point out) to pay as much for day care as you are making. No one said this was easy and there are exceptional circumstances but none that justify committing a crime.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Not to mention that most of these black criminals are shoved in prison systems for lengthy sentences for stupid crap like drugs.</p>
<p>Seriously, we have bigger fish to fry than just people using drugs, only harming themselves.</p>
<p>White collar crime most certainly affects more people.</p>
<p>Quote:
I still live in the same area and all of this that I have mentioned and done is all by my choice. Nobody forces somebody to</p>
<p>-Do Drugs
-Sell Drugs
-Commit a crime
-Join a gang
-drop out of school and be uneducated
etc, etc...
That's just your neighborhood then. When I lived in SC L.A. I was beaten for saying no to joining a gang. And crime is often what you gotta do to provide for your family in situations like that. Minimum wage doesn't feed mouths, neither do high unemployment rates.</p>
<p>Quote:
All of the men incarcerated are there because they chose to commit a crime, the govt didn't come around in the wagon arresting random minorities. THEY COMMITTED THE CRIME AND THEY DESERVE TO DO THE TIME.
Once again, for someone who claims to live in the Bronx, your ignorance is so evident.</p>
<p>1) Not all of the PEOPLE (not just men) incarcerated actually did anything. A lot of them are falsely shoved into the prison system because of some false claims by a "witness." Maybe if you actually knew what was going on in your neighborhood instead of just criticizing you'd know that.
2) Police don't go into the ghettoes and harass minorities!?! You don't know anything. Besides, how could you know that? You're white.</p>
<p>
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Oh yeah im sure LA is so bad, please its not even that poor, even when you go down to the country level. The Bronx is poorer and has the expense of living in nyc. </p>
<p>I am white so nobody wanted me in their gangs, i would just get the **** beat out of me everyday and 3x end up in a ambulance. Eventually they just left me alone because I guess i got boring. Then when i got to around 8, they started again and i fought back with one of my mothers kitchen knives and I guess they respected me for that, so I was left alone and actually made some friends. </p>
<p>If you don't believe I live in the Bronx, ask a admin on this site to track my ip address. Here is the trace route</p>
<p>
[quote]
68.198.16.156 is from United States(US) in region North America</p>
<p>TraceRoute to 68.198.16.156 [ool-44c6109c.dyn.optonline.net]
Hop (ms) (ms) (ms) IP Address Host name
1 13 9 12 72.249.0.65 -
2 7 5 8 206.123.64.22 -
3 11 10 10 216.52.189.9 border4.g3-2.colo4dallas-3.ext1.dal.pnap.net
4 203 204 209 216.52.191.103 core1.tge5-2-bbnet2.ext1.dal.pnap.net
5 8 10 10 144.228.250.97 sl-st20-dal-8-2-2.sprintlink.net
6 19 35 31 144.228.133.58 sl-xocomm-186697-0.sprintlink.net
7 Timed out 10 7 207.88.12.2 te-3-0-0.rar3.dallas-tx.us.xo.net
8 55 46 45 207.88.12.1 te-4-0-0.rar3.atlanta-ga.us.xo.net
9 49 55 47 207.88.14.133 207.88.14.133.ptr.us.xo.net
10 66 58 61 207.88.14.134 207.88.14.134.ptr.us.xo.net
11 Timed out Timed out Timed out -
12 Timed out Timed out Timed out -
13 Timed out Timed out Timed out -
14 60 62 49 67.83.225.130 dstswr1-ge3-16.rh.nyx2ny.cv.net
15 47 57 45 67.83.225.182 ubr201-ge1-0-0.cmts.nyx2ny.cv.net
16 Timed out Timed out Timed out -
17 Timed out Timed out Timed out -
18 Timed out Timed out Timed out -
19 Timed out Timed out Timed out </p>
<p>
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Call me ignorant if you want, I could care less. yeah im sure we can assume all the blacks in jail are there because a white guy lied. I will agree some laws target the poor, but it still doesn't force them to commit the crimes. I'm 23 and have lived in the same apartment for that entire time @ 19** hennessy pl. I think i know the area and its conditions pretty well, like I said im a product of it. I lived a pretty normal life and its not like I stayed locked up in my house. I was on the baseball and basketball team, had friends and everything. I just chose a different route than most. </p>
<p>The NYPD doesn't come in and harras if there ever even a presence anyway. BTW I am the minority in my area, you should try and find a local job being white when everybody hates the white man, because they blame them for all their problems. </p>
<p>Grow up man. How does selling drugs and committing crimes help a neighborhood. These people are to bloody stupid to realize it is a detriment to the next generation. MY mother never had an easy life and its my goal in life to get her out of this hell hole she has been living in for 52 years.</p>
<p>Last I checked a HS diploma can be had, pretty much, for free if you stay in school and just do the bare minimum. I am 40 years old, HS diploma from an average HS in Kentucky. Finally after 20+ years of working crap jobs and building my resume I make a decent buck. My wife and I have been married for 20+ years since we had our daughter when we were 19. Were my circumstances growing up as bad as some have, no. Did we have help along the way, sure. My mom is two generations removed from the poverty of Appalachia. It doesn't happen overnight. My kids will stand on our backs and hopefully have a better life than we did. It is our job as parents to set them up for success. There are plenty of kids from the inner city whose parents make sacrifices so that their kids can have it better. There are no excuses.</p>
<p>"ASC, that would make you a pariah on society and if you get caught I hope you pay for the crime." hon, if I weren't going to college to make my life better and not end up in these circumstances, we would have never had this convo because I wouldn't have been on CC.</p>
<p>All to often I see middle class suburban people trying to sum up what it is to be poor or live in the ghetto. You honestly don't know. You try to help the poor, but that only makes them dependent on that help. If they want to change they can. They choose not to. An example. Instead of doing community service and making a neighborhood look better. Thugs go around trashing the place and doing graffiti. Selling drugs, forcing kids to sell drugs and getting people addicted. They choose this over making the neighborhood a nice safe place to live, which then in fact might attract business to the area and boost the local economy.</p>
<p>Instead of the men respecting and protecting the women, they abuse, rape and treat them like ****. Instead of all the 20-30 year old men protecting the neighborhood and being role models to all of the other young boys, they choose to sell drugs, and commit crimes. They don't want to stop such actions and anybody who is against there barbaric way of life is a threat to them.</p>
<p>They don't want to make things better because that is hard and would require work. So they do nothing and blame it on the white man and the government.</p>
<p>My mother saw the problem and raised me the right way. She raised me as the man she wished she married. Its all about role models for the youth. Simple as that.</p>
<p>"You honestly don't know." Like I said, I grew up in Detroit. I know. My mom and my dad provided for my family via these "illegit" means.</p>
<p>"Instead of doing community service and making a neighborhood look better." Yeah, folks in the inner city have nothing better to do than go around planting flowers that they don't have and cleaning the city with time that they don't have. And exactly where do you suppose, aside from one's own house, someone should go to try and attempt to beautify the city without ending up in a world of trouble? Are you expecting him/her to sweep the street with a broom, or what? Forget about trying to get a job or provide for the family via other means, we've got a city to keep clean!!</p>
<p>"They don't want to make things better because that is hard and would require work. So they do nothing and blame it on the white man and the government." Really, so you suppose that if African Americans immigrated to America just like any other race (hispanics are somewhat different, as it doesn't require a whole lot financially to get here and they are exploited by corporate America), things would be like this in the African American community? Afterall, it would require quite a bit of cash just to get to America in the first place. I don't think so.</p>
<p>From all the people I see down in Over The Rhine (one of Cincy's inner city neighborhoods) standing around on corners doing nothing they might as well grab a broom.</p>
<p>Something definitely went south in Detroit. It used to be a major city and it has just gone to hell. I don't live there so I don't know all the in's and out's of what happened but it is one of the most blighted downtown areas I have ever seen.</p>
<p>ACS</p>
<p>They do have better things to do, but selling drugs or committing crimes are not better. They are worse. I never said anything about planting flowers, I just said clean up the place. Instead of having trash on the streets clean it and keep it clean. Instead of having a lot of crime keep the area safe and crime free. In time property prices will rise and along will come businesses. Businesses that will provide employment. That's how urban redevelopment works. Trying reading on it. If everybody kept in front of their home pristine and the entire neighborhood did such, it would clean up pretty fast. If the entire community is behind such efforts, then I don't see whats wrong with people going around with brooms. But like I said people need to want to help themselves. Cleaning up a urban area really doesn't take to long considering the number of people. Easily possible, and I am sure if there are people who need to work, they will be respected for doing such.</p>
<p>The argument of wanting help has nothing to do with race. It has to do with the mentality of being poor. The majority would rather take a handout or the easy way, rather than work hard and make things better. The majority of the Bronx is of Latin decent, whether from the Caribbean, South America or italy. There is also a large black population. Because of this I see no difference between the blacks and Hispanics. But I really didn't understand your land paragraph.</p>
<p>
[quote]
"They don't want to make things better because that is hard and would require work. So they do nothing and blame it on the white man and the government." Really, so you suppose that if African Americans immigrated to America just like any other race (hispanics are somewhat different, as it doesn't require a whole lot financially to get here and they are exploited by corporate America), things would be like this in the African American community?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Since you brought race into it what makes the blacks in this country any different than the hispanics, asians or whites in terms of poverty? We don't have a heavy hispanic or asian population here. The great majority of the impoverished in my area are either white or black. I would think that having the advantage of being a citizen and not having to learn a new language et al means it would be easier to get ahead. Please let me know how it makes it more difficult?</p>
<p>Like I said, "Really, so you suppose that if African Americans immigrated to America just like any other race (hispanics are somewhat different, as it doesn't require a whole lot financially to get here and they are exploited by corporate America), things would be like this in the African American community?"</p>
<p>People need to stop denying the fact that the black community in America would most likely not be in the despair that it is in if it weren't for what white America put them through and in many cases, continues to. There is NO denying it. And it is incredibly imbecile to expect African Americans to just get the hell over it and "move on." As was discussed on page 2, in many cases they can't even when they want to.</p>
<p>^^ I completely agree with you.</p>
<p>It reminds me of something Thomas Moore said about the creation of criminals who are then punished.</p>
<p>Answer the simple question</p>
<p>What forces them to do Drugs, Sell Drugs, Run and join gangs, commit crimes?</p>
<p>Nowbody can force somebody to do anything, everything is a choice and instead of playing robin hood, these men just make the situation worse.</p>
<p>Bureau</a> of Justice Statistics Homicide trends in the U.S.: Trends by race</p>
<p>I haven't put anyone through anything, thank you very much. I'm just so glad a I'm a member of the white boys club. It has done such wonders for my financial outlook! Please... The vast majority of people in this country, race aside, start with very little and have to make their own way. </p>
<p>I do have to say something about this ridiculous "African American" label that some attach to blacks. First off, not all black people are from Africa. Secondly, why don't they just consider themselves an American? I'm not a European-American any more than they are African-American. If you have gained citizenship then you are an American, plain and simple.</p>
<p>pmrlcomm: african american, black, whatever the hell you want to call it. I'm using the label because we are talking SPECIFICALLY about the group of americans with dark skin and curly, frizzy hair. THAT is why I'm not just calling them all "americans." This conversation would have been confusing as hell if I didn't differentiate in some way. </p>
<p>"What forces them to do Drugs, Sell Drugs, Run and join gangs, commit crimes?" nobody does, just like nobody forces white people or anyone else to do it, either! But if jobs, high wages, and decent neighborhoods were as readily available to them (and by them, I mean largely minorities and women, but "them" DOES sometimes consist of white men, too) as they are to everyone else, these crimes wouldn't occur nearly as often, as they would thus be assimilated into "suburbia." </p>
<p>And according to the polls, more whites use drugs than blacks if that makes you feel any better. As a whole, black America holds more interest in making money off of drugs than doing them. </p>
<p>Like I said on page two, prostitution, drug dealing, and theiving wouldn't be so appealing if they weren't an "easy" (and before anyone says anything, I for one am a Feminist; I'm not trying to call prostitution easy, but I know that many women will make that sacrifice) means to make a lot of money quickly. This isn't black or white America's fault. It is what it is. </p>
<p>"The vast majority of people in this country, race aside, start with very little and have to make their own way." True. But it always helps when you're not in the Ghetto and you have the MEANS to make your life better for you and/or your children (see page 2).</p>
<p>
[quote]
But if jobs, high wages, and decent neighborhoods were as readily available to them
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I'm glad you think it is so easy to get a good job with high wages. I don't know why poor neighborhoods have to be cesspools but it does seem to be the case.</p>
<p>I don't believe there is such a thing as black America. There are black Americans but no such entity as black America. Perhaps if those that hold themselves apart tried to integrate a little more they would find that some of the road blocks that may have been there in generations past are no longer there (a supposition since I'm not black).</p>
<p>I can only imagine being in the blighted neighborhood (race aside) would suck. Never been there and it's not experience I would care to have. What I don't understand is how generation after generation end up with the same fate. It's like a self-fulfilling prophecy (I'm not talking about any race here...just poverty in general)... My daughter will be the first person on my mother or father's side of the family to get a bachelor's degree. One step at a time. I'm sure you will not allow your children to endure the same hardships you had growing up and they will, in turn, pass something better on to your grandchildren. That's how things go. Apparently your parents did a pretty good job raising you in harsh conditions (although I still disagree with the whole criminal activity thing, something you will never have to resort to I'm sure). You have succeeded. I'm not blaming the kids. I'm blaming the parents who don't do better by their kids.</p>
<p>I missed the page 2 reference. sorry. Please advise. BTW, wonder what happened to the OP? lol</p>
<p>
[quote]
pmrlcomm: african american, black, whatever the hell you want to call it. I'm using the label because we are talking SPECIFICALLY about the group of americans with dark skin and curly, frizzy hair. THAT is why I'm not just calling them all "americans." This conversation would have been confusing as hell if I didn't differentiate in some way.</p>
<p>"What forces them to do Drugs, Sell Drugs, Run and join gangs, commit crimes?" nobody does, just like nobody forces white people or anyone else to do it, either! But if jobs, high wages, and decent neighborhoods were as readily available to them (and by them, I mean largely minorities and women, but "them" DOES sometimes consist of white men, too) as they are to everyone else, these crimes wouldn't occur nearly as often, as they would thus be assimilated into "suburbia."</p>
<p>And according to the polls, more whites use drugs than blacks if that makes you feel any better. As a whole, black America holds more interest in making money off of drugs than doing them.</p>
<p>Like I said on page two, prostitution, drug dealing, and theiving wouldn't be so appealing if they weren't an "easy" (and before anyone says anything, I for one am a Feminist; I'm not trying to call prostitution easy, but I know that many women will make that sacrifice) means to make a lot of money quickly. This isn't black or white America's fault. It is what it is.</p>
<p>"The vast majority of people in this country, race aside, start with very little and have to make their own way." True. But it always helps when you're not in the Ghetto and you have the MEANS to make your life better for you and/or your children (see page 2).
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You do know that when you state "But if jobs, high wages, and decent neighborhoods were as readily available to them " that all of these things are created by the people of a given area or a larger area. Jobs don't exist unless PEOPLE own businesses, and high wages only come for people who provide work worth of such. A neighborhood with no people is a great one, no drugs, no crime or any problems. Its the people who make it good or bad. So these things are earned not a given. Nobody owes anybody a paycheck or a place to live. If you don't hunt you don't eat, if you don't make money you don't buy food and don't have a home. Having a home and readily available food is a luxury of the civilized world. Most of the world lives in a situation where they live in makeshift huts and have little or no food if even clean water. These things by nature or by god are not a given they need to be worked for. In Africa a gazelle doesn't come up to a village and just fall over and die. Tribes people need to hunt it, kill it, prepare it, preserve it and serve it. It takes work. Nothing is a handout and nobody owes anybody a paycheck. You are only worth your economic contribution in society.</p>
<p>It means nothing to me if more whites do drugs, we have 74% of a pipulation vs 13%. Id be scarred if more blacks did drugs.</p>
<p>Like I said in my post above, the easy way doesn't make it the right way. This is what I said and still stand by it
[quote]
The argument of wanting help has nothing to do with race. It has to do with the mentality of being poor. The majority would rather take a handout or the easy way, rather than work hard and make things better. The majority of the Bronx is of Latin decent, whether from the Caribbean, South America or italy. There is also a large black population. Because of this I see no difference between the blacks and Hispanics. But I really didn't understand your land paragraph.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Do you think Jews have prospered by doing things the easy way. Do you think America was born by taking the easy way. Do you think civil rights in the mid 1900's was a success because they took the easy route. Do you think pushing for science and astronomy was easy when scientists were being killed for thinking what was through to be crazy. I can go forever, if you want change people need to fight for it. They need to work for it. Nothing in the world is a given. From the food we eat to health care to our sdecurity, people need to work hard to overcome and triumph.</p>
<p>A saying my grandfather told me.</p>
<p>"The easiest way is never the Right way. Ever"</p>
<p>ASC the majority of the millionaires in this country, Even with a higher number of black millionaires were all very hungry people who came from below modest upbringings. The majority of middle class or upper class people to become millionaires is below that of 1st generation immigrants and people from lower upbringings which makes them hungry.</p>
<p>The difference between me and everybody else in Morris Heights, is I don't think anybody ever owes me a handout. I don't think anybody should feel sorry for me. I'm not a charity case. if I don't work i don't eat and if I don't work I deserve to be on the street and even die. The earth gives me what I need, but what i said remains true if I choose to live in society. Like I said earlier, Nothing stops poor people from changing there situation. There is certainly enough money to go around, they simply have little to offer the economy. They need to make themselves marketable.</p>
<p>Its like the master top hat maker, who wants to continue making top hats. Well nobody is wearing top hats anymore, so either he changing his trade or he wont be hired. People in this country need to be dynamic. Just because you are trained in 1 field doesn't mean it will always be viable and if we give handouts to those who refuse to change we put our economy in jeopardy. Or the Hispanic immigrants who refuse to learn English. Well what do you expect, if you cant speak the language of the business, why should they hire you. They they complain to Mayor Bloomberg, that they shouldn't need to learn it to get handouts, its pathetic. Sounds like what we have now. </p>
<p>To end.</p>
<p>THE WORLD DOES NOT OWE YOU A PAYCHECK.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Please tell me that I am wrong that is ok to commit a crime because you can't find a job?
[/quote]
Is it okay to commit a crime even (or especially) when you have a job? (white-collar criminals come to mind in this case)</p>
<p>Why would any crime be ok? I don't understand what you are implying?</p>