CSU Fullerton

College Majors Musical Theater Major
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<p>Eve, </p>

<p>We were told that the lower division classes would train everyone so that they would be at BFA level by jury time, and you also told us that during 478 B, as well as “every day’s an audition” in the program. It’s totally understandable if you can’t train Joe Shmoe in 2 years to be Jury ready (in fact that would be incredible), but still, when that image was put in our head, we assumed the program was going to be very fast paced and push us so hard, neither of which I’ve found in the program. </p>

<p>As for the football analogy, you’re right. You would think that a competitive school like CSUF would attract the best singers and actors and dancers. But because you accept anyone who wants to be a theater major, you attract people who may not have as much training as the people as some who have been doing this for a while. A lot of them have a lot of potential, but how are they going to get ready to jury, as was stated during NSO, if they only have one semester of voice and acting classes before the first jury. CSUF seems to have a good amount of money. For example, “City of Angels” had a budget of $85,000, from what I heard. Don’t get me wrong, the money was well spent, but if the department had given the show a tighter budget, you could have used that money on something else. Like voice class for the musical theater freshman who don’t get to sing, even though they’re freshmen in musical theater. We’re not asking for one on one lessons for 125 students, but perhaps vocal ensemble classes. Something to help during freshman year, so that we can actually do some musical theater. </p>

<p>We aren’t stating our opinions as fact. We are stating them as our opinions, and the only fact we’re stating is that these have been our opinions and personal experiences. Eve, you started this thread as an opportunity for students to share our experiences, and that’s EXACTLY what were doing. Sorry if it isn’t quite the publicity you wanted for the program. We’re not going to sugar coat the school, nor are we going to unnecessarily bash the school. I feel Liz and I stating our opinions fairly and evenly, and not all of what we said was bad. </p>

<p>And Eve, you have to understand from our perspective that even if you think you were giving us all the details and being completely honest, you weren’t. We went in expecting a great, supportive, challenging experience described to us by numerous staff members, but what many of us feel we got was a lot of political ********, remedial lessons, and a competitive atmosphere where everyone is afraid to fail. Again I stress, that’s not a healthy atmosphere for an actor. </p>

<p>And because of the competitive nature, whether you realize it or not, people are sucking up to the staff. Did you realize that people formed a line to talk to you at the 478 B party for the freshmen? Whether you want them to or not, students suck up to you and other faculty members. And, from what I’ve seen, there are faculty members who can be very petty. </p>

<p>Eve, please understand we are not pessimists, we are not trying to find every tiny fault with the school. We are simply sharing our opinions and experiences. There are some things that I like about Cal State Fullerton. CSUF has awesome facilities, and CSUF itself is an awesome school. I’ve learned a lot from the teachers, and would love to work with some of them later in life. But I find the structure to not be a supportive one for this type of profession. I understand the idea of wanting to give students two years of preparatory course work, but if you expect them to already act and sing well when they first get here, just hold auditions for incoming freshmen and make the BFA a very small 4-year program. A cut system seems to lend itself to politics and make students think of ways to impress the staff so that they can stand out, rather than focusing on their art, which, in my observations, is exactly what is happening. It’s also causing a lot of talented students who have such a passion for theater to switch schools or majors. </p>

<p>This isn’t the voice of a few disgruntled students. A lot of my friends feel this way. The reason they don’t voice they’re opinions is because they’re afraid it’ll kill their chances for the BFA, but that’s how they feel. Instead of getting angry and defensive, please recognize that this is the voice of your students, and if we aren’t happy, something may not be working in the program. </p>

<p>And again, I stress that there are people who are happy at Fullerton, and if Fullerton’s program floats your boat and you feel it’s giving you good training, that’s awesome. I’m sincerely happy for you. And Eve you seem like a really cool person, and I’ve head good things about you as a director, and to be so available on College Confidential for anyone with questions is awesome. But if our honest opinions don’t put CSUF is the best light, we are not going to lie for the school. Incoming students have the right to hear all opinions, and use them to help form their own opinions for better or for worse.</p>

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<p>Jeff:</p>

<p>Thank you for your candor, and the time and thought you have put into this discussion - I appreciate your maturity and passion for the subject.</p>

<p>I hope these threads leads folks to something that they will be happy with when choosing Fullerton. I certainly don't want to have disappointment caused by the program, but there may just be no escaping that.</p>

<p>I, too, wish we could audition a small group in as freshmen, but we can't. We HAVE to remain accessible to transfer students - which is why we can't have BFA admission juries until the end of the sophomore year of coursework. This is a downside of blending conservatory training with a liberal arts education in a state funded, land-grant institute (whose genesis was a result of the need for a quality education for the local people who pay their taxes, and for others who wish to obtain an accessible specialty training they may not find elsewhere, within their means. We are considering how to improve the program (always), and one of the things that keeps coming up is incoming freshmen audition - but we simply can't and still remain transfer accessible. I guess we could audition students in and tell them, "the panel feels that at this point you would not be competitive in this environment," and then if they chose to come here they would be proceeding with full disclosure of our assessment of their limitations and liabilities. Don't know if that would help, but it might. </p>

<p>Like I said, I'm open to suggestions - how to make more clear what it is students can expect when attending CSUF, and represent all the student experiences that are possible outcomes, without promising too much (because only a few can ultimately attain the full BFA training).</p>

<p>And there would be a line of faculty to meet each student if there as many of us as there are of you, and vice versa. While I am flattered, I guess I don't give myself that much credit. Few are "blessed" with schmoozing gifts; I'm not one. It's awkward for us all, but nice to get the opportunity to meet you all at one place. I have a similar experience in 478B Freshman section: coming in to talk to you all at one sitting, explaining the program, advising and answering the questions people have, is VERY daunting (there's over 200 freshmen in that room), but always enjoyable because we get the opportunity to look you all in the eyes, and try to become more familiar with you.</p>

<p>Anyway, I'm rambling - pooped out! Just saw BLUE SERGE at Grand Central (two seniors, one junior, and two sophomores, and WONDERFUL work!). You should catch it if you get the chance. Closes soon!</p>

<p>I wish you well in your finals, and in the future.</p>

<p>Sincerely,</p>

<p>eve</p>

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<p>I understand the pickle of legally having to allow transfers the opportunity to join the junior year, and I don't know the legal logistics of running a program like this, but could you audition a small BFA group of let's say ten people when their freshmen and leave 5 spaces or so open for people to transfer in as "advanced standing" status during the junior year? I know a number of schools that do that, like Julliard.
Or perhaps you can audition people into BA program to make it a little more selective and have the juries during sophmore year? I know Point Park does that, and while it's essentially the same system you're on know, it'll make the jury process easier and give students more one on one training from the start. </p>

<p>And I honestly think that something that would make the program better is another acting class and a voice class freshman year. A few friends and I are taking an Acting Tech class at a community college because Madonna's class, as much as I enjoy it, just wasn't enough for us. We're getting into monologues and scenes now and a friend from turned to me and said, "I'm learning more right now that I've learned all semester in Madonna's class. Don't get me wrong, I understand going back to basics, but this is what we need to be doing more of for the juries".
I do understand and enjoy going back to the basics. I'm very happy I have more knowledge of the master teachers and their methods. But when we do text work, and not for a voice and movement purpose, I see everyone grow so fast. I think two semesters of acting, the first one being the master teachers/basics one, and the second semester being a little more advanced and focusing on text and styles, would be beneficial for everyone.
As for the voice classes, again, I'm not saying 125 students should get one on one voice classes, but at least a vocal ensemble class or something. I just find it ironic that musical theater majors don't get any music in their training until sophomore year.
And again, these could be things that I know nothing about, there could be some political, legal or financial issues I'm completely unaware of that limit the above from happening, but this is what a lot of us feel would make the program more attractive and enjoyable and result in happier students. </p>

<p>Jeff</p>

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<p>I also have some just small ideas which would make my personal experience there better, </p>

<p>I would LOVE to see the arts building we go to every morning to have a little bit more life in it. The walls are mostly all white and everything is very much the same. maybe I am asking for a lot and silly things but i would love to walk into the arts building and see art as opposed to just a blank canvas everyday. it would definitely make the building a much warmer place</p>

<p>Instead of starting from the basics which you have talked about I would like to see classes start at a very high level so as to push those who are not where they should be. I think this would be a much more effective way of teaching and "weeding out" of people whom really dont want to be there as opposed to starting with the basics though that may be impossible to do as well.</p>

<p>As jeff said earlier i would definitely love another acting class, we have only had 1 so far and being in the acting track i was hoping to have more than that and especially in my first semester but i understand there are things that just dont fit with everything else that needs to be taken.</p>

<p>And my biggest wish. Get rid of 478B. as helpful as that class was, it was only helpful the first 2 classes. After that it was alot of sitting around on our hands doing absolutely nothing. what I got out of that class was essentially what i was told at Orientation over and over again. Now i do think that class could be very very helpful if it was a class that was designed to teach the freshman the basics of every job they would have to perform when assigned a Crew. Just the bare basics. instead of assignments like "find a new place at CSUF and tell me about it in a 5 page paper" Thats something that i dont see helps me in any way shape or form to become better acquainted with the department.</p>

<p>anyway just a few suggestions that i think will help allieviate the frustration that goes on within the department and help better the experience for everyone! thanks for listening! ...or reading :-p</p>

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<p>hi everyone, </p>

<p>not sure if anyone still reads these anymore but i have read the last few posts and feel strongly about stating my piece as a former Fullerton student. </p>

<p>i dropped out of fullerton after being part of the vast majority of students who did not pass my juries. i remember thinking that my world had ended and went into depression, wanted to give up the arts all together. i had been cast in the musical the semester before my juries and had been singled out as a favorite in my class, so to not pass my juries was shocking to me. at fullerton, the professors build the BFA up like it is the only way to success, instead of encouraging you to find what is right for you, so when you don’t pass, you just feel totally useless. i found this especially hard after spending two years studying with these professors and seeking approval from these professors, who before my juries were so supportive and after my juries were over told me, “ever thought about taking up politics? you are very smart.” no, i want to perform, and what they don’t tell you enough is that if it doesn’t work out for you here, it will somewhere else if you are truly passionate about it. since leaving the school, i have performed and choreographed regionally all over the state, toured internationally, and have had a fine career doing what i love. my fellow classmates who thought they were so much better than me after making the BFA, have recently graduated from the program are asking me questions about the professional world and calling me for jobs. it is an interesting turn around.</p>

<p>the BFA is very distinct in who they choose, even after two years of training. they like singers who show potential acting. if you are a better actor, you will just get put into the acting program. dance means very little in the grand scheme of things there. yes there are dance requirements, but dance juries are a joke. there are a few good dancers who have come out of the BFA program, but most of the graduates are strictly and self-admittedly movers.</p>

<p>i think the biggest problem with the musical theatre program is the fact that the first day you walk into class your teacher says “look to your right, look to your left. chances are one of those two students won’t make it to next semester.” this may work in a more academic situation or even in an athletic situation, but performing is very different. this creates a HORRIBLE environment for people to learn, because for people to learn in the performing arts they have to allow themselves to be vulnerable and open. how can anyone expect a student to open up when they know that every student in that class room is hoping they screw up just so they themselves can have an advantage? i found it hard making friends the first half of year because everyone was so competitive with each other, and no one knew how to deal with it. it is often compared to the reality show “survivor.” the teachers even refer to it as that. for me, i found it impossible to learn and grow under that kind of pressure. i lost sense of who i was in trying to be what i thought the professors wanted. i know this kind of pressure works for some people, but it drove me insane and it not only should be something students should consider when choosing to go to csuf, but also that the faculty should consider when trying to make improvements on their program. how about a program where instead of encouraging students to work hard to beat out the other, encourage them to work hard for themselves. there are no way around juries, the program needs them and the people who really want to pass them are going to work hard regardless and people who don’t want to work hard get weeded out on their own. instead what a lot of students find is that they work hard for 4 years while they are in school to pass their juries and then when there are no more juries, they don’t know what to do. yes, fullerton boasts a long list of students now working in the industry, but how many people in each class choose not to pursue a career after all. they are too burnt out. there is a long list of those students as well.</p>

<p>my next BIG problem with the csuf theatre program in general is that it teaches you about the craft, sure, but it doesn’t teach you about the business and how to survive as an actor. what are good survival jobs? how do you do your taxes as an actor? what do i need to know about unemployment? should i become equity right out of college? how do i market myself? what makes a good headshot and resume? how do i negotiate a contract? do i have to have an agent to negotiate? what are the different types of equity contracts? these are all VERY important things, that the students who graduate from fullerton know nothing about. this industry is a business first. the producers won’t forget it and neither should we. a good addition to fullerton’s curriculum would be a “how to live as an actor” class.</p>

<p>lastly, i would like to say that i went to the csuf senior showcase in NYC a few years back and it was nice to see the teachers so thrilled with their students, something i rarely saw while i was at the school. when i entered the theater i was handed a folder with all their headshots in it, most of which were poorly put together, some not even in 8x10 format. the material in the showcase was poor. in a setting where these graduating students should have looked absolutely flawless, they showed many many weeknesses. immediately following that showcase i went a few blocks uptown and watched the graduating seniors from Julliard who gave an absolutely flawless performance. i know the NYC showcase is a relatively new thing for the csuf students and faculty, but someone really needs to really take a trip out there to see what the school is up against. NYC is not a place to be “cute” and “funny” to score points.</p>

<p>i do not regret my time spent at fullerton. i learned a lot. unfortunately, it wasn’t the education my parents thought they were paying for, but the anger in me when i failed my juries lit a fire in me that honestly could have burned out if i had stayed there. the professional world is very competitive in the audition process, but once you have the job people enjoy and love what they do and appreciate each other of their abilities, something fullerton does not teach.</p>

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<p>First of all I couldn’t find the last post to be anything but completely incorrect from my experience from CSUF. This is one person’s opinion and it is unfortunate that they felt that way about their experience. I am a graduate of the BFA program and could not have asked for a better experience.</p>

<p>I would lie if I did not say that the program is a risk. But welcome to the real world of Theatre. Queenofheartz, you mentioned you felt that you were in and there were clues, and people led you the wrong way and there was a lot of politics, WELCOME TO THE REAL WORLD. In general if you can not handle rejection from something at a college level, then how are you going to be able to make a career that has rejection around every corner. I cannot stress enough that the CSUF theatre program is very close model to the outside and professional world of theatre. </p>

<p>Yes, they are picky about who they chose. But then again, welcome to Theatre, this business isn’t a “come one come all”. If you have found work by your hard work and dedication, very good work on your part. But please do not take out your bitterness that you did not make the program, out on this post. Because the bottom line is, many people have trained with this program and many have lived wonderful lives in the theatre.</p>

<p>As for dancing in the program, I find this remark to be completely irrelevant when graduates have been cast in highly technical dancing shows like A Chorus Line and Lion King. There are teachers like Macarena, and students come back to take her class years later because of her training. </p>

<p>I find this post to be a very bitter letter to the fact that they did not make the program. Everyone is allowed their opinion, but I find that the person’s post does show what the majority of graduates experience and get after the program. This is nationally acclaimed school that casting director’s know about and have a high opinion of it because of the talent they see and offer jobs to. It is without a doubt that it is one of the best Musical Theatre schools on the west coast. And you can go to many Broadway shows and Broadway touring musicals and see CSUF listed in many Playbills!</p>

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<p>queenofheartz,</p>

<p>You bring up very valid points, and I agree I have experienced this same lack of encouragement at times. I am sorry to hear you were so affected by the entire process. I had very low self-esteem and a poor self-image during my Sophomore year as a result of the uncertainty of my advancement into the BFA program. That being said, I have also greatly grown as a performer thanks to the pressure of the situation and also to all of my teachers, the majority of which were extremely sensitive, nurturing, invested, and encouraging.</p>

<p>I agree about adding a “Making it in the Biz” class. Unfortunately, CSUF College of The Arts students, including Visual Artists, Musicians, and Actors, are required to take an exorbitant amount of units. The teachers are so invested in their work that they already go above and beyond the requirements of their jobs to promote artistic integrity and growth. In light of the current Cal State financial situation, I do not think a new class or an additional professor will be hired anytime soon. Perhaps instead of a class, a series of masterclasses would be greatly helpful!</p>

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<p>I’ll apologize in advance if I: a) know you and offend you in this reply, b) seem incoherent at all with typos and such, (combined 103 fever and passion driving through me right now aren’t conducive to writing a well thought out email; I’m sure you understand what those “weeknesses” are like, right? {check “weakness” for correct spelling and definition next time}) and c) seem slightly too *****y or sarcastic, but I find it makes reading things like this much more entertaining than being sensible. </p>

<p>Where to begin…
I think it’s high time to let go of your obviously deep dwelling anger that you direct so personally at the CSUF faculty for providing you with what you did not find to be a productive learning environment or criteria. If you were one of those who had felt like your world was ending as a result of not making the BFA, then you already started the process two years before with the wrong mind frame. Anyone who walks into that department with the thought that those juries from Sophomore into Junior year will be the “end of their world”, in my opinion, have already set themselves up for failure. Granted, please do not think I was ever NOT stressed or free of any pressure to make it, and it would have extremely sucked hardcore had I not. </p>

<p>I came into the sophomore class in what was already my junior year of college. I had thought to change career paths away from theatre already once before, and if I didn’t make it, I would have had to make a third attempt at a college degree. There were many times that I would become overwhelmed by that fear of devastation, but I constantly told myself and really BELIEVED that it would not be the end of anything, just another MAJOR inconvenience. </p>

<p>There are MANY points in your post that I feel stem from this idea that you created for yourself that it was the “end all, be all” of your world. With that thought floating around in the back of your head, it’s easy for you to misinterpret positive and competitive statements made from professors and/or peers. Not everyone in your class put the BFA program on as high of a pedestal as you did. (I know this probably seems way more analytical of your brain psychology than it should be, but you ranted and raved quite a bit and every point you made seems to stem out of your own ideas of what you thought this program was). </p>

<p>I can recall several times during 236b, our instructor Bill stating that this was NOT the end of the world. Yes, he compared it to “Survivor”, and that’s absolutely true. The way the program is designed resembles many of these realty shows in which we start out as a mass, but when push comes to shove, you’re being shoved by the person on your left or right, because what are we all there for otherwise? To win the prize of making the BFA. And just because I didn’t see it as the end of my world if I didn’t make it, doesn’t mean that I wanted it any less. </p>

<p>In defense of the school and the faculty, a lot of students don’t realize that decisions made on who gets in, and what the criteria will be, are all based on politics. Not politics at all involving the students, even. CSUF is a STATE UNIVERSITY and therefore mandated by the governor, university president, the Dean of College of the Arts, etc. Basically, your complaints about not having enough classes that you found to be useful are an unfortunate waste of breath. While we should be able to be heard from time to time on what works for us and what doesn’t, the people making criteria decisions and academic choices for us are people who don’t even know who we are or what we’ve done in class from day to day. It’s unfortunate, but we are a state school and funding comes from the state. We don’t have the piles of money that places like Julliard or CCM, PRIVATE CONSERVATORIES or two year academies have. And on that, its sad to say but sometimes a decision between two people, who are equal on every level academically and in performance, comes down to whose parents have more money that they can put into the program. And that’s a disgusting thought, but EXTREMELY understandable when a state budget cut puts all creative arts programs at the top of the list to take a hit. CSUF is a four year university that offers the 2 year training a program like CCM or Boston Conservatory offers, but also has to comply with what the state mandates. This creates several issues, of which u and i both mention, but is also extremely beneficial. I have a FOUR YEAR DEGREE in addition to the focused and integral training u get from these two year schools (might be helpful in changing career paths for whatever reason in the future). But I do think it is highly unfair to point a finger at the faculty, who may have called you out as a favorite, and been pretty upset themselves that you weren’t put in the program. They probably seem less supportive and weird around you after the fact, because they know how most students who don’t make the program tend to feel about it. So rather than allowing themselves to be personally and emotionally attached, since they do this EVERY YEAR, they have to separate themselves so they don’t lose their minds as well (although I think Eve lost her mind awhile ago, but for unrelated reasons…hahah i’m kidding, Eve, you’re a kick!)</p>

<p>Getting back on track to counteract your statements…
You mention that they don’t tell you “if it doesn’t work here, it will work somewhere else if you’re truly passionate” but it doesn’t just take someone passionate. It takes someone passionate AND talented. I saw plenty of people in my days at Fullerton who were really talented, but completely UN-driven, and people who were Driven so hard they could have plowed through 20 brick walls, but just didn’t have an ounce of ability. And the faculty has even said, in class, to us as sophomores, “this is not the end”, and have given multiple reasons for why they have to choose one person over the next. It could come down to grades in the dept, grades in GE classes, a “type” they know will work for a specific show the next year, you never know what that final deciding factor is. it could be as simple as one person sucking, or they have to comb thru reasons until they find out whose got more money. </p>

<p>Ah, and again, you feeling like your peers felt they were so much better than you just comes out of you putting the program so high. they probably just wanted to avoid the obvious awkwardness that would have been, with you being so devastated from not making the program. Its a difficult situation to be in for both parties, when one is completely elated from making it, and the other is completely devastated. Its hard to be supportive for someone who basically slams every aspect of a program you both worked so hard to be in. I had friends that cried, and were upset, and things were weird at first, but I was understanding of how they felt, and they were sensitive and understanding of the excitement I felt, and things were eventually back to normal. Yet, you mention that they are now asking you for audition tips and advice, would they do that if you they thought they were better than you? Perhaps the department didn’t accept you because they didn’t feel you would gain much from the experience, being at an advanced level? Maybe not though…
They do tend to chose people whose forte is more concentrated in one or two of the three threats, but wouldn’t that be so they can give more focused training to them in the BFA if they see that potential? In my class, and others prior and after, there were a few ppl whose dance ability was off the wall, but lacked in vocal and acting ability, but they knew the potential to grow was there and would be much more successful in a class of ten, rather than a class of 42. </p>

<p>ALL your complaints about the competitiveness of the program and how the faculty puts pressure on you to compete are completely devoid of validity in my opinion. ACADEMIC AND ATHLETIC SITUATIONS ARE JUST AS MUCH A LEARNING ENVIRONMENT AS PERFORMING, and JUST AS COMPETITIVE. DUR!
sports is almost entirely competition, based on what you can physically do, but still requires thinking and learning to do things you didn’t know your body was capable of. Academics is a competition of what your mind is able to comprehend, and you have to be willing to be open to learning from a book. Interviews- a competition of who has the brain power and skill at a specific job. Auditions - a competition of who has the performance skill and ability for a specific show or roll.
the fact that you have to be vulnerable and open up is something that is difficult for the individual, and comes down to how much strength or willingness that individual has. This is why some people are shy, and cant even get up in front of their class in fourth grade to present a science project, or not. If you’ve had so much success performing regionally all over the state, how did you find that strength to be vulnerable in front of a table of directors, and then in front of mass audiences, if you found it difficult in class?
If you can’t handle the stress of competition at CSUF, you can always go to any other state school that offers a BA in theatre and you can get the same general education as the 200 other kids in your class. </p>

<p>“how about a program where instead of encouraging students to work hard to beat out the other, encourage them to work hard for themselves”…something you said. Again, I think this is an idea that stems from you putting the BFA on such a high pedestal and thinking it was the end of your world, because you force yourself to work hard and succeed when you come at it with the right mind set. There’s always going to be a winner and a loser, someone who gets cast, and someone who doesn’t. every audition has you in a room full of people who want the same thing you do. do you not look to your left or right, and think “I will show them my best so I can get the part over these others”? </p>

<p>I think I’m eventually going to wrap this up, but you’ve just allowed me so much material to respond to. AS far as having classes on survival, show me a law school that offers the course “so you just nabbed your first high profile case: what to do with the paparazzi in your face”.
Survival skills come easier to some than others. Street smarts and how to handle living and money situations are things you just learn from experience on your own, trial and error. “how should I market myself”, “what makes a good headshot and resume”, “how do I negotiate a contract”, “what are the different types of equity contracts” ARE ALL things I learned at CSUF, in advanced theatre classes that are required for even GENERAL THEATRE majors, …thank you, Jim Volz. If CSUF graduates claim they don’t know anything about any of that, then they had someone else sitting in their seat in class. </p>

<p>“How to live as an actor” class? ***. Do you even know how to live as a human being? Lifestyle is an individual thing, you can’t learn how to live in any career…you figure it out. </p>

<p>And getting to your last complaint about the CSUF showcase being less than flawless and Julliard being perfection, I could be wrong, but I can’t help but feel that You were LOOKING for flaws and imperfection, considering how fogged your mind is with disdain for the CSUF program and your peers who got what you wanted. A fire sparked from so much anger, is a fire that needs to be PUT out, not let burn out. </p>

<p>I just reread what I’ve written so far, and I realize there are many times I use “you” as a generalization, and others when I really mean, YOU queenofheartz. I hope you can figure out the difference. I can sum up now, my opinion of CSUF. Its all relative to the individual, as is ANY program or school. You take what you can get out of it, and what works for some, may not work for others. They do good things there and for every pro there is a con. That’s the balance of life kid, the yin and the yang, the good and the bad, the on or the off.
I apologize if I seem to have attacked you in this response, but your mentality in giving your opinion seems to just be about “me, me, and me”, and while it was your experience, you act as though everyone else’s was or will be the same, and i find that to be extremely unfair.<br>
Believe me, I dealt with **** at fullerton, but for every bag of ****, there was a smiley face sticker. So, you do what you can, give all you can give, and take what you will. Hopefully, its not a fire of anger.</p>

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<p>Every year, we incorporate numerous master classes so that students may better learn about the business they are considering making a career in. We offer headshot/resume master classes, as well as bringing in photographers at a discount (they see more students with one set up, and can afford to discount accordingly). We also give a masterclass on non-“theatre” musical theatre opportunites, including casinos, theme parks and cruise lines. We bring in representatives from Actors Equity Assn. to explain the various avenues available by to pursue union membership (and we always advise students NOT to join the union until they HAVE to, because they have more opportunity available as non-union actors until they are ready to work in union houses by consistently landing the roles/casting that show they are “ready”).</p>

<p>We regularly have students attend/perform at the OCPAC master class series (attached to various artists currently performing there). At those classes, they learn not only about auditioning, but have the opportunity to learn from practicing professionals about industry trends and other contemporary info from the pros who are making a living at it via Q&A.</p>

<p>Speaking of pros, we also have professionals come in (usually thanks to faculty, who pull in personal favors to accomplish this because state funding is so limited a resource for “extras” such as this). Sometimes these guests watch students auditions/songs and give individual feedback/coaching; other times they do Q&A sessions; sometimes it’s a combination of both. In the past five and a half years, we have had Jason Robert Brown (composer), Kristin Chenoweth (star of stage and screen), Amanda McBroom and Michele Brourman (well-known cabaret/songwriting team), Dave Clemmons (Broadway and national tour casting director), Marc Cherry (creator/producer Desperate Housewives and alum), Paul Barnes (nationally renown stage director and alum), Matthew Morrison (Broadway star, now starring in Glee), and Carol Channing (star of stage and screen) all come in for this purpose. Add to that mix the numerous alumni stars that have graciously given master class time when on campus for performance, such as Marshal Carolan, Jennifer Hubilla and Neil Quinn (coming this spring), and many others (see below). Brian Stokes Mitchell (Broadway star) visited the year before I started, so about 6.5 years ago.</p>

<p>In addition, the junior musical theatre curriculum (dance for musical theatre) regularly includes guest artist industry professionals who come in to recreate original Broadway choreography for the BFA students to highlight them in their junior showcase: Dan Mojica, Dana Solimando, Michael Kostroff, Dashaun Young, Chelsea Ferrar and Eric Koptke, Michael Paternostro, (head of CSUF Acting) Svetlana Efremova-Reed, Garrett Minniti, Diana Kavilis Morris, and many others. The juniors have also received master classes from Hollywood Aerial Arts and Pole Position Fitness for this class, the work from which has likewise been highlighted in their end-of-semester showcase. The master class artists are very honest with the juniors, telling them exactly what they need to hear about their current level and where they need to be as a professional: you need to lose about 10 pounds; you need to gain about 10 pounds; you’re fierce, now you just need to OWN that; you are a mover and as such are limiting your castability in dance shows; you are a great jazz dancer/break dancer/crumper/tapper, but you need to build up your core and extension (ballet) to increase your casting potential; ALL these have been heard by various students. The BFA DOESN’T STRESS DANCE? Are you kidding me??? Many alums have found their first professional employment (and thereafter, numerous subsequent pro gigs) based on this initial contact made in Dance for Musical Theatre - which is the focus of their MT studies ALL junior year!</p>

<p>Finally, we produce a huge industrial for the university each year, Front & Center, directed by Roger Castellano (nationally renown director/choreographer) and choreographed by Kym Andrews (formerly of Disney Company). Roger, too, has employed our alums by recruiting or remembering them after graduation.</p>

<p>We have hosted a stop on the PCPA audition circuit every year for the past four years, offering summer opportunities for performers and tech/design/stage management students.</p>

<p>In the senior level “Auditions” class (yes, we do have a class that is offered each year to the BFA - the MT students can’t always get the extension of units to TAKE it, but it’s there for the Acting BFA currciculum), we offer a “business of the business” education (in preparation for the Sr. and MFA Actors’ showcase).</p>

<p>Finally, I personally have invited Disney Entertainment Co. executives into my classroom (when I taught Acting III with the junior musical theatre students as recently as last year), to audition the students and answer their questions about that particular media giant: employment, unions, opportunities, and other advice given, after watching the students’ auditions and giving them individual feedback).</p>

<p>We are doing everything we can, within our limited means, to prepare the students for the challenging and complicated industry awaiting them. Guest artists supplement that which we are able to incorporate in the VERY demanding BFA curriculum (we have one of the two highest unit load degrees offered by the university; the other being Engineering).</p>

<p>Hope this helps clarify the opportunities we have available to prospective students. </p>

<p>My best advice? Do your research. Don’t take just one person’s word for it.</p>

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<p>Well done Eve, nothing in your post is an opinion or personally offensive (I may have missed the boat on the second one, but she started it! lol.) That’s more research in your post alone than I ever did through all of junior high, high school and college put together! ha!</p>

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<p>wow! i did not mean to get so many people worked up over this. apparently, i brought up some topics that i guess i didn’t think were so sensitive. firstly, i apologize if i offended someone. that was not my intention, so if i did i am sorry. i also would like to say thank you for all of your responses. they have made me think, which i appreciate. and specifically to buddyfidlestix27, thank you for your sarcasm. i, too, found it entertaining, and ironically, i don’t mean that sarcastically.</p>

<p>look, this is my opinion based on my experience. i am allowed that just as you are allowed yours. i never said everyone would have that experience or even that the general population of the the department would have that experience, however it was my experience, not yours or anyone else’s. it is easy for us to judge each other coming from opposite ends of the field, but i highly doubt either of us would have the same opinion of the program if we switched places. i completely understand why you passionately support the bfa program like you do. you experienced all its benefits, so it makes sense. it confuses me why you think it is wrong or unjust that i don’t support the program as you do. why is it wrong that i have formed an opinion based on “me, me, me.” isn’t your opinion based on you? does mine have less validity just because it is negative?</p>

<p>this site is for prospective students to help aid them in deciding which school is right for them, not to attack each other, so lets get back to that. i think we would all agree that fullerton is not for the weak so why should we sugar coat what is? what i went through (though you are right, it was my fault for allowing it to affect me the way it did and i own that)isn’t something i would wish on any one. it would be my hope that my posting (along with a few other former student’s posts, a few pages back) would, if nothing else, help people not to put themselves through what i did, or even not go to fullerton if it doesn’t sound right for them after hearing two possible outcomes. i only wish someone would have told me what it was like being on the other end. i am not sure if it would have changed my mind about attending the school, but it may have changed my expectations going into the program. i think eve is right, don’t listen to any one person!</p>

<p>i can say that the school taught me to deal with rejection, probably more than any of it bfa graduates, considering i was actually rejected. something to consider, dancer9837, when comparing the pressure of the bfa jury system to the “REAL WORLD” : when you go to an audition in the real world, generally speaking you come into a studio or theater, perform for complete strangers behind the table and walk out, prepare for the next day, and come back and perform again for a different set of strangers for a different show, and so on. you don’t spend two years and countless hours preparing for this one audition in front of people who you have practically become your family only for a small chance you might make it through. even in a final callback where so much is at stake is it never as personal as the csuf jury system. not to mention that in the “REAL WORLD” you are auditioning for a job to get paid, not taking out student loans to attend an audition. there is much more that goes into college then just time and effort. students are the consumer. i am not saying that the jury system needs changing, just that it needs to be considered when making decisions about school.</p>

<p>call me jealous, angry, bitter; judge me for sharing my thoughts; fault me for giving my all for something i really wanted; laugh at me for spelling weakness wrong; i really don’t care. what it comes down to is this: fullerton is a risk, as dancer9836 says. what is at stake is different for everyone. don’t be like I was, and not be ready to face what you risked.</p>

<p>as buddyfidlestix27 says, there is a balance to everything. i am the con to your pro, so why you were so harsh is hard for me to understand. we are a balance. unfortunately for you and for the school, the tone of your e-mail is almost exactly what you are arguing against.</p>

<p>funnily enough and contrary to popular belief, i am not bitter, and i definitely don’t regret the experience i had at this school. i know the training had i made it into the program would have made me a better performer, but life dealt me different cards that had me a better person and i am ok with that!</p>

<p>in the spirit of good fun, i would also like to point out that role in the context of theater is “ROLE”… not ROLL.</p>

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<p>I have found this set of exchanges very interseting for a number of reasons, most of which I will not go into! But I do agree with queenofheartz that I think it is invaluable for a prospective student to hear from many voices in a program and pro/con voices are so important to the uninformed! As a parent, I do have trouble with cut systems just because I feel that as a school, if my child was invited in after an audition, that s/he deserves to be taught. If there are problems because of absences or poor quality performance, counsel, reteach, give a second chance and then say… You need to find another major. But to assume that you will whittle an original number of students no matter what, and blindside a certain number of students just because the numbers say so… that is unethical, in my book. (I am a teacher.) But I believe that there is a very long, passionate thread in here somewhere on cut programs, and this may not be the place to contine that thought.</p>

<p>But as I have said before in another thread, each student is unique and brings his/her own history, needs, abilities etc to bare when approaching this process of college hunting. It is most important to know yourself first, then get as much info as you can on all the programs out there. I just think it is really difficulty for a 16 or 17 year old to REALLY no what they need/want. (I realize that there are some kids lie Soozievt’s D who do know themselves, but there are more like my D who took a little time to really know what they needed!!!) Read, read and read some more to find out as much as you can about all programs! And if you can talk to students, you should because unfortunatly, a few schools do not present themselves as correctly as they might. (That is a long story!)</p>

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<p>i think that BuddyFidleStix was responding so viscerally to several things in your post that were unrelated to your own personal experience: your blatant accusation that your BFA peers were inferior to you (then, and now), the claim that they are begging you for work and advice because they are so ignorant or “burned out” from the program that most are unable or unwilling to work professionally, and your indictment that those who made the BFA essentially “shunned” you (which is not necessarily the case if seen through their eyes; they may have felt what you expressed rather than perceiving it the other way around). </p>

<p>First, as to the shunning: it is awkward for ALL in this situation - the teachers, who know and admire you, and who care about what happens to you; the students who don’t make it into the BFA, who feel like they are somehow less desirable (even though we constantly point out that the program only has 10 spaces each year, and that a vast majority of incoming freshmen will not be included in that ten simply based on the odds of the numbers involved); and for the students who DO make it in, having made very close bonds with their fellow students who didn’t make the BFA, feeling terrible for their friends, yet at the same time feeling SHAMED by wanting to express their own joy at advancing (often forming new, insular bonds with their fellow BFAs because they are free to do just that, express their pride and joy, without judgment or worry of being perceived as “evil”). To help this “overall awkward” situation, we now include in the BFA acceptance letters advice to remember to reach out to your peers who were not advanced: they are hurting, feel as awkward as you do, and need your support now more than ever. Granted, not all are receptive to this approach; some of the new BFA are just too chicken to deal with socially awkward situations (they are still young adults, and this is not uncommon among their age group). Others follow the advice, only to be hurt by those who were their “friends” a few weeks earlier (again, another hard lesson in a young person’s life - finding out who your true friends are). And yet more are maintaining their friendships by staying just that, “a friend” who is there regardless of whether one makes the BFA or not - as if to say that the BFA is not a barometer of your self-worth. You see, QueenOfHearts, the fact that your experience was awkward is the NORM; the fact that you blamed it on your faculty and BFA peers is no longer in the realm of expressing “your experience,” but now enters the world of accusation and blame.</p>

<p>Second, as to your painting a picture of less talented students making it into the BFA, how can one respond to that without getting into a contest of wills regarding methodology, aesthetic and professionalism? There is no graceful way to respond except to say, “We’ll have to agree to disagree on this.” At juries, you may have been: on the list of those who were axed by the acting faculty based on weakness in that area; one whose academic progress in GE land was not strong enough to ensure success in the program, or whose requisite coursework was not at the minimal grade level; high on the “maybe list” but just below another student based on inferior vocal skill and/or aptitude; strong in one area of dance, but not others; tone deaf; or even at the bottom of the barrel. I have no way of knowing, due to the veil of anonymity behind your moniker, which hides your identity from the world. I don’t have that luxury, so have to face the slings and arrows of misfortune that my posts will inevitably subject me to…on a very personal and transparent level. Even if I did know your identity, I couldn’t really discuss your weaknesses on a public forum such as this; that would be unprofessional and degrading, neither of which do I aspire to. So I can’t really respond to your allegation, nor can anyone. You have effected a “hit and run” tactic that is perhaps unfair in this public forum by making that claim.</p>

<p>Finally, as to your statement that most of the BFA are too burned out to ever work in the industry, or those that aren’t are so ignorant that they are coming to you to beg for work and/or industry savvy and advice, I couldn’t disagree more. MOST of our BFA alums are working in the industry, though not all at the notorious level of Broadway and National Tours. They are working on cruise lines all over the world, working for Disney corporation (both tours and theme park, nationally and internationally, and on cruise lines), in regional theatres, in small professional theatres, in Las Vegas revues, in seasonal shows for companies such as Universal Studios and Disney, in small singing ensembles, and in a plethora of other respectable professional venues. Your slam of this very talented, driven and humble group of people was uncalled for, in my opinion, and again crossed the line from personal experience into defamation.</p>

<p>I have to say this…though I have been biting my tongue not to for fear of sounding inflammatory. I have posted on this discussion thread for several years now, and find it very disheartening when students who are not happy with ANY program post scathing, often unfair, defamatory statements about “what they were told” as opposed to “what they got.” I nearly removed myself entirely from this website and all its threads at one point due to that very frustration, born primarily born from FACTS that I KNOW TO BE TRUE:</p>

<p>All our prospective student literature is VERY honest about the numbers of students who want the BFA in MT (anywhere from 75 to 150 freshmen EACH YEAR) as opposed to the number accepted (10 to 12 at the end of the sophomore year). The odds are horrible, yes, but we are honest about those odds. Also, we are very honest about the odds for women being worse, simply because there are more of them: at the freshmen level, men’s odds are about 1:3, women’s odds are about 1:10; by the sophomore level, due to attrition rates being what they are in college, women’s odds are 1:5, men’s are 1:2. We make no false promises or representations about the limited number that we can accommodate, due to the state funding available to us (the first and only CSU campus to offer a BFA in MT). Anyone who has read the literature posted on this very website can substantiate that. It appears the confusion comes from students who don’t do the research on their “top programs;” I can only assume that rather than work the due diligence to find a good fit for themselves, they rely solely on a program’s reputation or what friends/parents have told them. Prospective students need to go to the source, ask questions, be savvy shoppers! Yes, we all know you are busy in your final years of high school; so is EVERY OTHER STUDENT in the nation. Get over it, and DO THE HOMEWORK; or give up any right to gripe about it when a program isn’t what you thought it to be.</p>

<p>I am also extremely honest with prospective students about the competitive nature of the program. Some students like that; others abhor it. But it is what it is. When meeting with prospective students, we never deceive them with false pretenses of potential success. We are honest about the need to pass all three juries (including acting, which is a necessity in this program; the dancing, without which your career in MT is severely limited; and the vocal prowess and RANGE required, because it is called MUSICAL theatre for a reason). We also tell them that we compare academic progress at the juries, because a student who goes through the BFA training should have the foreseeable ability to actually graduate, ensuring our program remains in the good graces of the academic structure from which we receive our funding. Yes, we have cuts. If you don’t like it, don’t come here - PLEASE! There are other terrific schools were you will be blissfully happy without fear of competition (other than the definite competition of large numbers of “uncut” students who can’t get cast in their school’s season of musicals because the limited numbers of roles available, which apparently some do not find to be as competitive as juries because they can deal with the rejection factor in that respect just fine…go figure).</p>

<p>We are also honest in saying to students that “having desire isn’t enough; EVERYONE here has desire.” Unfortunately, the assessment of your talent falls upon the collective shoulder of the faculty experience and not “how much you want it.” These decisions aren’t based on the level of the student’s desire, and have nothing to do with “who we like,” “who has the most or least money,” or even, “who is the best” - e.g., women are told that even though they may be stronger than a male classmate, they may still not make the program because we need 1/2 men in each class, if at all feasible, to continue producing our extensive season of musicals (beyond Quilters and A, My Name is Alice). Yes, it sucks to be a woman in this industry; and our training and structure accurately reflect that reality, very openly and without any attempt to hide the fact.</p>

<p>So, the frustration that BuddyFidleStix must feel at being (for lack of a better word) maligned is understandable; as is your anger at a program that didn’t live up to what you had expected it to be. I hope my present response puts into perspective WHY your post has received the variety of defensive responses that it has (and no doubt will continue to). You may not have realized it, but your expression of “personal experience” crossed the line into inflammatory accusation and unfair statements about OTHERS’ experiences (both within the BFA program and after graduation). I am not sure where your misconceptions occurred, but perhaps that would be a beneficial post for prospective students: how to really do your research so you know what you are getting into.</p>

<p>I am not one to get dragged into the mud or the fray, but I simply couldn’t NOT respond, in defense of my integrity and that of the program and students (past and present).</p>

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<p>Snoggie: I should clarify that CSUF doesn’t “invite students in after audition” at the freshman/transfer level - if a prospective student can meet minimum admission standards at CSUF, and if they list “Musical Theatre” on their area of study, they are in. That’s the limitations of a state school - we have to stay accessible to all; even those who may not offer a lot of promise or experience.</p>

<p>We jury students into the BFA at the end of the sophomore level of study, once all prerequisites are complete with minimum grade standards being met.</p>

<p>That’s why a student can get cut at the jury after studying here for two years (in preparation for those juries). Once accepted in the BFA program, a student can only be dismissed for lack of response to the training provided (with very small classes, student teacher ratio is usually 10:1; and weekly voice lessons are 1:1), or for disciplinary issues. </p>

<p>Thought I should clarify that.</p>

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<p>I very much appreciate your clarification. I also appreciate your explanation of your school’s presentation as compared to what students experience. I am sure you know that not all of your peer programs are as forthcoming, even though I know that most are!
It really only takes one program to make a person wary of all programs if burned once!</p>

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<p>THERE IS ACTUALLY USEFUL INFO IN THIS ONE…</p>

<p>after I defend myself, because I’m stubborn. :)</p>

<p>Touche, QueenofHeartz with the “role” comment. lest us not forget, I was extremely ill at the time, so, I do apologize for such petty spelling errors; I did preface with apologies and I’ll beg your forgiveness once more. </p>

<p>On a positive note, I think it’s nice to see that there are active responses on this forum after what seems like a long period of silence. Eventually I hope this forum gets back to what eve had intended it to be, cuz it was a really good thing. </p>

<p>Reading the back entries, it’s interesting to see the decline as a result of bitter “castaways” posting their so-called “opinion.” What I keep reading in these posts, and now yours, Queen, is this claim of “it’s my opinion, it’s my opinion, its my personal experience, you can’t tell me i’m wrong! I have a right to say it!” </p>

<p>yet what every single person who has made that claim on here fails to understand is that the WAY THEY ARE STATING THEIR “OPINION” MAKES IT SEEM AS THOUGH IT IS HARD, COLD, FACT. You pin-point groups of people, be it the faculty, BFA-ers, or “wanna-be” BFAers and paint this portrait of them, mostly in negative light, for people reading these who have no idea otherwise. So, suddenly these unknowing incoming freshman who are hoping to find out useful information about the school they might attend,are picturing all of their freshman classmates as these evil, competitive beings, and BFAers as snooty, arrogant and (according to you) not as talented as they think they are. You may have felt this way, because of whatever experience YOU had at CSUF, but it is not FACT. </p>

<p>It’s not even about me coming from a place of pride with being a BFA Grad. I honestly, could give a **** about your negative “opinion” of the BFA program. But you weren’t commenting on just the program. U then included faculty and students as being someone to point a finger at for why your experience was negative. This forum is about the BFA PROGRAM itself, and the courses it offers and the abilities of the instructors, NOT ABOUT THE CHARACTER OF THE BFA STUDENTS OR PERSONALITIES OF FACULTY MEMBERS.
But, since the door has already been opened to slam people when we really don’t know them, from your posting alone, I gather there is an extreme lack of maturity and UNDERSTANDING on your end about a situation that should be, at this point, far behind you. But you did feel the need to revive it on this forum, even admitting that you weren’t sure anyone read these anymore. Well, now you’ve put it out there and hopefully you’ll find someway to move past it. I’m assuming you are close to my age, and what I think you are missing is an understanding of both sides of your experience. I absolutely get the anger and frustration that comes along with not making it in the BFA. Did I have to experience it? No, but I would still allow my friend to grieve and be sensitive to them and not gawk in their face the fact that I was in. Just as I would hope my friend, would be understanding of the excitement and sense of accomplishment I was feeling, and be able to stop their tears for a minute to say “hey, i’m really happy and proud of you, how can i help you celebrate”. SO while its nice that you wouldn’t want to wish your experience on anyone else, you certainly seem to lack encouragement for students to make an experience on their own. If there’s anything I can’t stand, it’s someone who presents their experience to the inexperienced and says “don’t do it that way, because I did and this is what happened to me (therefore it will happen to you)”. that basically implies that it was all the other factors in the situation, everyone or thing BUT you, that created the negative experience. </p>

<p>Aside from being personally offended by your inability to separate fact from opinion, you made several false claims that the curriculum didn’t offer any knowledge of several business type things, including “how to negotiate contracts:”, “what are the different types of contracts, etc”. I could go back and quote EVERY SINGLE THING you listed as being something Fullerton wouldn’t teach you, and I can WITHOUT A DOUBT tell you what class and which professor I learned that from. </p>

<p>There’s a book available on Amazon.com called "Backstage guide To Working In Regional Theatre’ by Dr. Jim Volz. Jim volz is a professor in the department and this book lists every type of Equity and non-equity contract you could possibly be offered and explains the differences. If you were to be a student of Dr. Volz, and were to be offered a contract in which you felt needed to be negtotiated, he would not only explain how best to negotiate and what you’re able to negotiate, but he would even offer to do it for you. He covers a lot of the contract types and theatres in his 478 classes, while also covering theatre/play history. Point being, you don’t know how to present your opinion as your opinion, and you don’t know facts because you didn’t do research. </p>

<p>I definitely had negative experiences being in the program both prior to and once accepted into the prgoram. And the tone of my previous email comes at my own cost, unfortunate or otherwise, NOT an any cost to the school. As I recall, I never really blew up and praised Fullerton and said that it was a theatre students heaven on earth or anything like that, I simply stated that it is all relative to the individual as is ANY major in ANY department at ANY school. Some prospective students and their parents are smart enough to come to campus and take tours, during my junior and senior year I, myself, gave many of those tours. I would be asked questions and offer answers in the only way I know how, blunt and often brutal honesty. There were often times I had to stop and think about what I was saying, and questioned whether or not it was something I should tell the student. And i DID tell the students and the parents those things, candidly and honestly I told them about the not so glam sides of both jurying into and making the BFA. no sugar coating here. And I DO NOT run around singing the praises of CSUF MT and telling everyone they should go there, just as if i was on your end I would not smash and bash CSUF MT telling everyone how awful it is because it didn’t work for me. I got good things out of CSUF. Sue me. </p>

<p>Queen, I’m done exchanging with you on here because I can’t help but start to attack you for your lack of maturity, understanding and obvious close-mindedness. I hope I don’t know you and take care. </p>

<p>anyway, if anyone DOES pick-up reading this forum and really wants answers on the BFA, the hardships, kinships, pros and cons, I am someone who struggled to make it in, had difficulty staying in the program junior year and was close to being cut, and then thrived senior year. I think I’ve seen a pretty wide spectrum of situations, good and bad. This forum was created to answer questions and share experiences in regards to the curriculum and resources of the CSUF theatre Department, the way it IS, not the way it should have, coulda have, or would have been. And I’ll be happy to discuss any of that with anyone.</p>

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<p>My daughter and I went through the department tour yesterday and met Prof. Himmelheber. We were guided across the campus by three exceptional young people, Brad, Rose and Daniel, all members of the BFA program and all very enthusiastic about the major, the department, its leadership, teaching staff, and facilities. I left wishing I could sing and be 18 again entering college. I know where I would attend. (:-)</p>

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<p>bwaybaby84, any chance we can get an uopdate from you about how Fullerton went and what you have been doing sense?</p>

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<p>I don’t think BwayBaby84 has posted anything since 1996, so may not get notice of your post.</p>

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<p>Do you mean she hasn’t posted since 2005? That was her last post. CC didn’t even exist in 1996!! :D</p>