<p>It just seems like gambling two years of your education for a spot you might not get. I'm not a pessimist by any means, but I'd rather not have to worry about the juries so I can focus on my education and growth as an actor. And that's exactly what some of us are doing, we auditioned for other schools and are leaving at the end of summer.
Again, if you like the program at CSUF, by all means more power to you. I just know I'm not happy there. And I'm very excited to be going to a 4 year BFA program, because without the weight of the juries hanging over all of our heads, I think we'll all be a lot more supportive of each other and we'll have a lot more fun and grow more in what I feel will be a more nurturing environment</p>
<p>I seem to be supported by the faculty and the students, and I know other students who feel the same way. To students reading this: I really hope you are not discouraged to come to this amazing school, because of a few not so good reviews. Instead I encourage you to form your own opinions, and do the research. Take advantage that a faculty member is on this very thread. Take advantage of the students who are willing to help. I am so happy that I chose Cal State Fullerton, and I would love to be of any help.</p>
<p>And if CSUF is working for you, that's awesome.
A college is really about what fits for you. For a lot of people I know, CSUF isn't really a good fit for us. Some of us are transfering, some of us are toughing it out.
StudentRep, if CSUF is a good school for you and you feel you're growing and feel supported, that's awesome. I'm very happy you're enjoying it.
We're simply stating our personal experiences, and for some of us, that happens to not be the best.</p>
<p>You can do all the research in the world but we are still students and we are still giving our opinions and feelings about the school. I will not lie for this school, nor will I sugar coat it. Choosing a college is a very important decision and I wish I had had all the facts before coming to Fullerton. That is all I am trying to do. Give a first hand account of my experiences here. StudentRep, I am very happy you are happy at Fullerton. People definitely are and can be successful there. Potential students do need to know that there are MORE THAN A COUPLE of people who are unsatisfied and disappointed with the program. And that if they are looking for a comfortable, nurturing enviroment in which to explore and develop their talents, this may not be the school for them.</p>
<p>Do you feel that CSUF helped prepare you for your auditions or do you feel you would have been just as prepared going to a junior college?</p>
<p>For college auditions to transfer?
I do. As much as I'm not a fan of CSUF's theater program, a year of college life at home has been really good for me. It's gotten me used to the whole college thing, picking my schedule, organizing my things to do around my classes, fitting work in, etc. Not to mention going through some personal things that have made me a better and more mature actor and person. </p>
<p>I know I've grown a lot as an actor, but I don't know how much of that I can accredit to CSUF. It could be being on my own, it could be the fact that I haven't been stressed out by shows and therefore have been able to focus on personal growth. I don't know, but I know that I've taken a lot of steps and grown a lot since last years auditions.</p>
<p>I second what Jeff said. </p>
<p>The thing is, at CSUF MT freshman take ONE semester of acting and NO voice. So you if audition training is important, your D may want to invest in some privates outside.</p>
<p>There's no voice at all for freshmen? Not even an elective through the music dept? To pay for college and private lessons, well as a parent, that's not going to be to easy to accomplish. She'd have to come home every weekend to have a voice lesson. She's not going to want to that... and wouldn't blame her. It's not practical. I would hope that the school would have excellent vocal teachers available on the campus that she could avail herself of. or else, with no singing and voice lessons for a year, there will be unnecessary slippage instead of growth! </p>
<p>and only one semester of acting? What do they do the other semester?</p>
<p>Usually the other semester, students take "Art of Theater", a play reading class which gets you familiar with plays and authors of different genres that any actor should know, like "Topdog, Underdog", "Arcadia" and "M. Butterfly". I actually found this class to be very useful.
As for the one semester of acting and no voice classes, there are alternatives. A few of us are taking an acting class at OCC with one of our high school teachers. Also, there are voice teachers around, whether they're students who want to make some money or teachers who have an extra hour after classes (not necessarily at CSUF).
There are ways to make it work for you if your not happy with the current situation, you just need to be proactive.</p>
<p>Private voice lessons through CSUF are impossible to come by unless you are a BFA MT or a music major. If you are going to want voice lessons, you will have to go to an outside source. The school has a list of voice teachers "in the area" (some are in the LA area) that they recommend. I have found that most of the ones they recommend are extremely expensive.</p>
<p>Thank you both for the info & ideas for possible solutions to the training deficit. We live in the San Fernando Valley so we do know voice coaches up here and in the LA Basin who are very good. It would be mighty inconvenient though. As far as acting, well I guess added classes at a community college is one way to go.</p>
<p>Congrats to you both on your transfers!</p>
<p>I'm curious to know which reputable BFA Musical Theatre programs are you all transferring to where there is no jury system? </p>
<p>My experience has been that selectivity by a college contributes to smaller classes, more one-on-one teacher/student attention, more stage time, etc. If the school takes anybody who is interested and has enough money to fund the education, but does not have any cut system, do you really believe this to be a reflection of the finest training available, and preparation for the industry that you have chosen as your career?</p>
<p>The small numbers we take into the BFA are determined by NAST accreditation results. NAST set this number, based on our resources and numbers. I truly value the NAST accreditation - an extensive review process, by which schools are evaluated for this distinction.</p>
<p>Also, we have to wait until the end of the sophomore year before jurying - by law, a jr. college student must have the same opportunity as any of our own students entering the upper division of college work. So we COULD jury in freshmen, then cut them if and when a more talented transfer entered...but that wouldn't float your boat either, I imagine.</p>
<p>Honestly, a large majority of our grads get work shortly after graduating (if not before) - another fact I'm proud of.</p>
<p>I continue to be amazed by students who CHOOSE to come to CSUF, after we are entirely honest with them about the jury process, timing, numbers, etc., and then ***** about it. It pays to do your homework about any program BEFORE APPLYING. You should GO VISIT any school you are looking at. You should OBSERVE CLASSES, TALK TO CURRENT STUDENTS and ASSESS/QUALIFY the student experience you can expect there. Then look at your bank account and see if you can pay for the tuition/books/room/board/transportation/utilities/entertainment/etc. fees.</p>
<p>If you make a decision, and then you are subsequently disappointed, transferring out is a great option. Glad you are comfortable exercising it. Best wishes,</p>
<p>eve</p>
<p>Students take Acting one semester, Script Analysis in the other semester of the freshman year; and BOTH semesters they take Voice and Movement for the Actor. And students are HIGHLY ENCOURAGED to take TWO dance classes each semester in the freshman year. </p>
<p>We do not offer voice lessons for students who are not in the BFA - there are too many students (up to 125 freshmen may be interested in majoring, and we DON'T AUDITION you into the program - anyone who WANTS to be a musical theatre major CAN be, as long as they qualify for admission to the university. We are VERY HONEST ABOUT ALL OF THE ABOVE when you INQUIRE or READ ANY OF OUR LITERATURE.</p>
<p>Honestly, we presume you sing well before you GET here, otherwise you wouldn't be considering pursuing a highly competitive degree like the BFA here. That would be like me saying, "I want to play football in college. I know I CAN, but I've never really tried (outside of with my family and close friends). But I should be allowed to... Simply because I think I can. So let me get on the team at Michigan; but as I've never played in an organized league, I'll need a special trainer, dietician, and physical therapist supplied first, please."</p>
<p>And yes, good voice lessons might seem expensive to someone unaccustomed to the nature and expense of professional training. Of course, you can find excellent training for near to nothing in those rare few cases of qualified teachers who teach for the love of the craft, and not for income. I just don't know of any of them who live in Southern California. If you have any references for inexpensive professional voice teachers/coaches that are within reasonable distance of the university, I would love to know their names (for research before including on our list of recommended instructors).</p>
<p>I hate having to defend the program at CSUF, especially when people are apparently too "busy" to do their research before applying and coming here. However, I LOVE to brag about our great students, and the talent and passion of a great majority of the students here. That's the thing that makes coming to work in the morning a great honor.</p>
<p>eve</p>
<p>Eve. We are posting only for the purpose of what you stated. To give students a perspective from people who are currently attending. I don't think the condescending remarks are necessary. These are our opinions and as much as you may disagree with them, they are valid.
The schools we will be attending audition students, accept students and intend to graduate the same amount that they accept. There are evaluations. If a student is not making the grade, they are asked to leave. But the school does not give them false hope.
We knew about the jury process and everything before attending; what we didn't know was, that because of the juries the value of the education in the first 2 years is highly devalued. "Everyday is an audition," right, Eve? What kind of environment is that for a growing performer? College should be a place where we are able to stretch and grow and fall flat on our face, if it will teach us something. At CSUF, "everyday is an audition." There is no room for failure or growth when every student is begging for attention and to nervous to take risks because who knows who will be watching and that could hurt your jury. The high pressures should come when we are out of school and in the "real world." Not when we are trying to learn. Also, we didn't know that the BFA students would not be selected solely on talent, but on suck-ups and politics.
The school claims to adequately train a student to the level where they will be competitive for the BFA. Doesn't that EXPLICITLY say that Joe Shmoe off the street, with no theatre experience, can start as a freshman at CSUF and still be able to pass his juries? Where does that fit in to the football analogy? Where does it say that freshman don't have/need any sort of singing class? When someone attends a college, as a Pre- BFA/BFA student, doesn't one assume there will be singing somewhere in the curriculum? And at no extra cost?
To accuse us of "not doing our research" and berate us for giving our OPINIONS on the school, is horribly trivial and immature (something I have found with several of the faculty in my transferring. and reason #123 for leaving) We did our research and last August I was so excited about attending CSUF. I was horribly disappointed. I stress AGAIN, THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE HAPPY AT CSUF. I am not one of them and I have seen people who had the most vibrant passion for theatre change majors after one semester at CSUF. These are OPINIONS and OBSERVATIONS. That is it. For research's sake.</p>
<p>Definitely don't want to be part of this very uncomfortable exchange, but FYI, off the top of my head, Carnegie Mellon does not jury or cut at all. Two of my D's classmates were accepted there for the Fall. Their BFA starts Freshmen year and it starts with a very small class.</p>
<p>I know there are more from the top tiers who don't cut, but I can't remember. I read the information somewhere on this board.</p>
<p>I apologize, SarasMom, for participating in the awkwardness on this thread. I felt the need to defend myself. </p>
<p>Thank you for your data.</p>
<p>Eve, the other BFA programs are just as competitive, if not more so, than the Cal State Fullerton's BFA program. These are programs that take anywhere from classes of 35 to classes of 8, and people are auditioning from all over the country and beyond to be in these programs. So I wouldn't say that other BFA programs aren't selective at all; quite the contrary. And most of the schools with a BFA program also have a BA program that doesn't require an audition, so anyone who wants to study, regardless of their level can come as well (which is something I like about CSUF, but they're not the only one)
We all did our homework, and were very excited to come here. I remember at NSO when David Neville talked to our group, and got me very excited about coming into the program.
But what has turned me off are two main things:
1. How political the system is. I am very much an optimist and will find the good and defend it instead of berating the bad. However (and I've never had to say this about another school), if Fullerton found students who they felt were insulting the school, I really think the students would be blacklisted, not because of irresponsibility on unprofessionalism, but simply because they insulted the program.
2. The need to get noticed. As LizMT posted above, this "everyday is an audition" atmosphere and needing to worry every day what people are thinking of you is so unhealthy as an artist. I've been training for the past 6 years to try to NOT care about what other people think of me, because if you give into that, you start judging your work and are never truly in the moment. I just feel it's unhealthy. </p>
<p>Again, I repeat: there are people who are happy at Fullerton and the school does have good teachers. We are just stating our opinions, and mine personally happens to be with some of the structure and mentality of the program.</p>
<p>SarahsMom-</p>
<p>I am currently a MT freshman at Cal State Fullerton who is also pursuing a Classical Voice minor. I am taking private voice lessons through Prof. Janet Smith, who directs the Opera Theatre group at CSUF, and I can't tell you how thankful I am that I decided to do that! By receiving instruction in classical technique (versus ruining my voice and living in my chesty belt tone), my voice is stronger, my range is bigger, and I can sing belty songs without pushing myself. All things I want to work on before I jury next year... </p>
<p>Here's the catch- private voice lessons aren't free for anyone who's not a music major. I'm currently registered for voice lessons (Music 193) through Extended Education, and I'm paying $565 a semester. That's about $35 for one half hour lesson a week every week of the semester. If you're still interested in taking lessons through the Music Department, I recommend looking up background info on the voice professors here and start e-mailing your favorites. (Personally, I have to take lessons from someone who sings the same voice part as me- if your daughter is a soprano, I would talk to Patricia Prunty. Mezzos/low altos are better taking from Janet)</p>
<p>I hope this helped... if you have any more questions, feel free to ask!</p>
<p>Thank you Bway*Estrella11. That's very helpful! My D will follow up with this. :-)</p>
<p>Okay, I'll drag this through the mud, Liz.</p>
<p>You state, "The school claims to adequately train a student to the level where they will be competitive for the BFA. Doesn't that EXPLICITLY say that Joe Shmoe off the street, with no theatre experience, can start as a freshman at CSUF and still be able to pass his juries?" The answer is NO. We are very candid about the odds of admission to the BFA - not everyone will pass their juries, not everyone will pass their prereqs with the required miminum grades, not everyone will be admitted (as anyone who has read the CSUF threads can confirm). We state that the odds are at least 1 in 4 (for men) of admission, and about 1 in 8 for women.</p>
<p>You further ask, "Where does that fit in to the football analogy?" The answer: in the arrogance of the "entitlement" model that so many students cling to - I WANT it, and I work really hard (even if I'm not meeting the standards), so even if I'm not cut out for it I SHOULD be able to do it just because I WANT to (and I should further have the school supply any remedially required training, coaching, expenses, courses, funding, etc. to achieve this). Many students mistakenly assume this, unfortunately.</p>
<p>You ask, "Where does it say that freshman don't have/need any sort of singing class?" In all the literature that we send out, as well as on these threads, and during on-campus department tours, we are very clear about the limitations of attending this state school with a BFA (a unique situation in CA, as you know). We can't afford to give private voice to all the students who would like to be in the BFA. We are very honest about this "liability" up-front, hence my comments about the lack of research in defending our program.</p>
<p>You further ask, "When someone attends a college, as a Pre- BFA/BFA student, doesn't one assume there will be singing somewhere in the curriculum? And at no extra cost?" The answer is yes, and no. Yes, you do have "singing" in your lower division coursework: 181 Basic Musicianship Skills (taught by our Musical Director, not Music Dept. faculty); and two semesters of Musical Theatre, both of which involve almost exclusively singing (some acting in there, too, and a little dance), and are covered under the full-time tuition students pay. NO, you cannot assume that private singing lessons will be provided at no extra charge, for two reasons: 1) we tell students quite frankly that we don't offer voice lessons until you are in the program (as a junior and senior); and 2) the old adage about "don't assume" applies to everything about college - if you assume you make an *** out of you and me... Our music dept. charges it's own majors and minors for voice lessons - this is above and beyond tuition, and is labeled a course "fee." Many BFA schools follow this model in their own voice lessons (but you won't know this for sure unless you ASK...never assume anything).</p>
<p>You state, "To accuse us of "not doing our research" and berate us for giving our OPINIONS on the school, is horribly trivial and immature (something I have found with several of the faculty in my transferring. and reason #123 for leaving)." You are stating your opinions as facts, not personal experiences, but rather "universal truths," which they are not. And I am not berating "you" personally, but rather students who don't read the literature we send to them, don't listen to what we state clearly and unequivocally, and don't visit the school to see what it is they have chosen to pay for. This is one of the many reasons (though not the "123" number you quote for hating Fullerton) why I seriously am reconsidering the value of spending my spare time responding to posts on this discussion thread (if it doesn't do much but bite me in the behind).</p>
<p>In all instances, we are quite candid about the liabilities, strengths, and limitations of our markedly less inexpensive, and more accessible than UCs, "state" school (both very appealing prospects for many of the students who apply here). We tell prospective students and parents that they can use all the money they save in TUITION (as opposed to a private institution, or a UCI or UCLA - both schools to which you admitted you didn't meet the academic qualifications for admission) on voice lessons - the only things we CAN'T offer until a student is in the program.</p>
<p>I would also remind you that I have encouraged your transfer with enthusiasm (on another CSU thread) without plying you with lies and deception to stay here... I think that you know best where you will be happy.</p>
<p>I remind any readers (who haven't shied away and are reading this far) that tours are easily and regularly accommodated - all one has to do is ask. I've arranged over 75 dept. tours/class observations this school year ALONE (they observe dept. classes in acting, musical theatre, ballet, tap, jazz, voice & movement, analysis; and also get a tour with a current BFA student during which they can ask any questions and get an honest answer without the teacher hanging over their shoulder; and also can receive a meeting with MT faculty members to ask any lingering questions, or else are encouraged to send any follow up questions via email for immediate response).</p>
<p>I've done my best to be honest with the readers of this thread, in great part because I want students to know EXACTLY what they are choosing when applying here (much less, coming here!). I don't have to defend the program or my position on this issue; I just felt compelled to do so in this instance, in response to personal attacks on faculty and current students, as well as misinformation regarding our level of honesty about what we can and cannot offer here.</p>
<p>I sincerely wish good luck to all the students who have decided to change their path, either changing majors, schools or dropping out entirely - there IS more than one way to your ultimate goal. I recognize and applaud your forward motion.</p>
<p>And I recognize that we are not the only school in the nation; how arrogant and FALSE would I be if I said otherwise? Which is why I DON'T - rather, I encourage ALL prospective students to do their research, visit your schools of interest, observe classes, talk to the current students, ask LOTS of questions, and make the best decision for YOU.</p>
<p>Finally, "sucking up to the teachers" is really unattractive to us, believe it or not - these students appear very eager to please, and we can SEE that. AND, there have been BFA students that I didn't/don't personally LIKE, but this didn't distract from my ability to teach, assess and advance them to the best of my ability.</p>
<p>End of sermon.</p>
<p>eve</p>