Current supply & demand of lawyers

Parents Forum
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<p>I think law school offers a great education and one which could benefit many people. It is hard to know whether you will like what comes AFTER that, though. My son had the benefit of internships both at a huge law firm and as a paralegal with a prominent sole practitioner. Seeing how unhappy many of the lawyers were at the big firm, and knowing that is probably where he would be starting out, even it was in a city with some better quality of life firms, led to his decision not to go to law school. </p>

<p>I never worked for a law firm (except as a clerk during law school) and know I would not have liked it. Going directly in-house is almost not an option anymore, although a few companies have started to hire new grads.</p>

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<p>“In the end the decision to go a private law school is justified on a ROI basis if the law school graduate can expect to make approximately $20K a year more in income than he would without the law degree. For many college grads with liberal arts degrees the return will be significantly greater. This is why law still attracts nearly 25% of a typical Ivy league school class, more by far than any other field by far.”</p>

<p>Unless you are talking only about graduates from national (T-14 type) law schools, my response would be “What planet do you live on?” I know for a fact that for graduates of other law schools, the market is horrible. Many of the students would DIE to have any kind of consistent contract work at $30 per hour.</p>

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<p>This is what I think is the best strategy: Try to figure out where you want to live after graduation. Ideally, it is somewhere like Kansas or New Mexico. Get admitted to the law school at the state U AFTER establishing residency by working a year or two. Do very well at that state law school. Land a good job, since the top grads at the state law schools are getting jobs. All set.</p>

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<p>“Finally, kids go to law school and all other types of jobs because that is what they like to do.”</p>

<p>That’s a good reason, if you can afford it.</p>

<p>But if it is for bucks (or for a decent job), the point is that there are heck of a lot easier ways to do it.</p>

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<p>I would love to know what these professions are so I can tell my kids! </p>

<p>The median salary for an attorney in the state I reside in (CT) is $114,500. The bottom 10th percentile is around $60,000. The supply of lawyers is artifically limited by the state bar association. Only speciality physicians earn more on average but the training is also a lot longer. Primary care physicians earn less than lawyers in most states and still have to go through residency.</p>

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<h1>1 - how old is that “median” attorney.</h1>

<h1>2 - how many (what percentage) went to top 14 law schools).</h1>

<h1>3 - If you took out partners, and those from top 14 law schools, what would the median income be?</h1>

<p>Assuming you enter undergraduate education now, have No debt from it (fat chance), and enter law school in that fifth year, it will set you back $90k a year for three years, give or take. Assume you borrowed it all. And then assume the salary you are likely to get if you aren’t a partner, and didn’t go to a top-14 law school. Assume an interest rate of, let’s say, 8%?</p>

<p>Now try a two-year AA-degreed nurse. With no debt. Who starts banking money in her third year. At what point will the lawyer above end up financially ahead of the nurse?</p>

<p>Try the same thought experiment with a Connecticut accountant who works for a Big Four, who, in his 9th or 10th year become a senior finance manager at a sizeable corporation.</p>

<p>Try the same with a really good Connecticut plumber, no degree, but a good apprenticeship, and with a head for business. At what point will the lawyer above end up ahead of the plumber?</p>

<p>Now I happen to like lawyers. I believe lawsuits (especially medical malpractice ones) are virtually the only way to keep the medical profession honest (state boards, like the one I worked for, surely don’t). And young lawyers work HARD - 70-80 weeks are not uncommon. If it is what you love, I think it is great. </p>

<p>I think that’s true with anything you love. But it’s not easy money.</p>

<p>(I hope you’ll tell your kids.)</p>

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5 years of practice- Before age of 30.</p>

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Very few in CT. majority went to UCONN law school a very respectable (top-40) public law school.</p>

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<p>No difference in median income because of very small number of partners. Big difference in average income. </p>

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<p>A relevant comparison would the typical UCONN law student with a total COA of $38K or $114K for three years. Average debt is $80K for three years which translates into a repayment schedule of $1,000/month for ten years at 8%. </p>

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<p>Salary range for LPN/LVN in CT is $25-$50K. Median is around $40K.
Salary range for graduating lawyers at UCONN is $50K-$160K.
Median starting salary is $75K. (the median starting salary is $90K in private practice). </p>

<p>Let us assume the LPN banks 10% of income per year. By the time the UCONN student graduates from law school the LPN would have banked at most $20K. </p>

<p>IN THE FIRST YEAR, the starting UCONN lawyer makes between $55K-$60K after paying the student loans or around 40% more than the LPN. By year 5, the net income of the lawyer is double that of the LPN. </p>

<p>A better case would be an RN or NPs but the lawyer would still be ahead after a few years after accounting for student loans and any savings. </p>

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I would compare that candidate to the top 10% of the UCONN law class than ends up working for top law firms in NYC at an average starting associate salary of $160K. 99% of the time, they will be ahead financially of the accountant. Even those who work in medium size firms in CT would be ahead from the start.</p>

<p>I don’t care how you run the numbers, only physicians make more than attorneys on average and even that case is less and less clear cut. Most states and the federal government can still control the supply of lawyers through various board admissions and Medicare does not control what you can charge.</p>

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<p>I don’t know of ANY involuntary out-of-work physician though. Do you?</p>

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<p>They can? But do they?</p>

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<p>“et us assume the LPN banks 10% of income per year. By the time the UCONN student graduates from law school the LPN would have banked at most $20K.”</p>

<p>Not LPN - RN. My wife is a fourth year RN (with a two-year degree), and will take in almost $90k this year. No debt. Banking money. In this fourth year, the future lawyer is still an undergraduate senior, and is about to take on $270k in debt. </p>

<p>A “typical UConn” student has a debt of $80k, and paid out a minimum of another $80k-$100k before starting work. (That money could have been earning revenue.) The first year RN made more than the first year typical UConn (median 50% student) even AFTER he graduates, but by this time, he has seven years of experience. The median RN salary in Connecticut is almost $83k. </p>

<p>Again, eliminate from the $110k average all partners, all top-14 law graduates, and adjust for age, and all of a sudden lawyers in Connecticut aren’t doing all that well. (I think it is likely about the same as the median RN, who has taken on no debt, and has seven years of extra work behind him.)</p>

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<p>Money aside, an attorney isn’t exposed to communicable deadly diseases (Hep C, AIDS, TB), doesn’t do housekeeping chores, doesn’t deal with all kinds of body wastes and excretion, doesn’t do back and other bodily breaking labor, isn’t regularly exposed to blood which carries diseases, is capable of advancement unheard of to an RN (they top out in the low 100’s if they get a masters), and many more things that differentiate the RN and Attorney, aside from the MONEY.</p>

<p>The attorneys I know who LOVE their jobs far out weight the RN’s I know who HATE their jobs.</p>

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<p>Not true. You confuse median and average. The average income will be affected by the very top end, the median hardly at all. The $110K is the median income reached after 5 years. The average income is significantly higher. </p>

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<p>Completely false. An RN in CT has a starting salary of AT MOST $50k, averages around $60K at 5-10 years and peaks at around $80-90K. In CT they ALL have at least a bachelor’s degrees. </p>

<p>The median STARTING salary of a UCONN law student who does not go into public service is $90K, more than what an RN earns at peak income after more than 20 years experience. Even accounting for debt we are talking at most 2-3 years before the lawyer passes the RN including debt servicing and lost income. We are not even in the same ballpark.</p>

<p>Going back to the accounting example, a tax attorney typically makes 2 to 3x what an accountant makes with equivalent years of experience.</p>

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<p>Just looked at the UConn website employment statistics.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.law.uconn.edu/system/files/private/Career%20Services%20Report%202010%2004-15-11.pdf[/url]”>http://www.law.uconn.edu/system/files/private/Career%20Services%20Report%202010%2004-15-11.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>The figures that you quote come under the old saying that there are three kinds of lies: Lies, damn lies and statistics. Only 103 out of 173 students surveyed reported their salary numbers. Guess who uniformly reported–the high earners! Duh.</p>

<p>I hope no one who is thinking of going to a typical state law school reads your post and is deluded. I can tell you absolutely that a lot of them are dying in the job market. Period.</p>

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<p>There is no evidence the reported data is biased towards those who have the highest salaries. At UCONN, I would argue it is actually the opposite. The true average salary is higher than the reported average. This is part due to UCONN’s very successful evening law school program where the majority of students are already employed by large corporations in the area. They hardly ever report their salaries which on graduation are much higher than those of the day students. They include accountants, insurance executives, PhDs, engineers, physicians and other professionals adding a law degree to practice a particular specialty. </p>

<p>I graduated myself from the Class of 2009 as an evening law student and never bothered reporting my salary. I believed it would actually have skewed the averages too much upwards as I was an “atypical”" second career lawyer with a 25 year prior corporate experience. Quite a few of my classmates were in the same situation. </p>

<p>Also, I would not ding public law schools, especially those attached to the state flagship. UCONN among others is actually quite selective with over a quarter of enrolled students graduates from the Ivy league or other top 20 colleges. They are some of the best bargains around, have generally excellent placement as long as you stay instate or in neighboring states. They also have a virtual monopoly on the public service legal jobs in the state. If you had bothered looking at the firms recruiting on the UCONN campus, which include most NYC BigLaw firms, you would not make such ignorant statements.</p>

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<p>^^^ That’s what I said, but in this economy you have to be way high up in the class at that state school</p>

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<p>Do you have statistics showing NYC Big Law hiring UConn law students? Recruiting is different than actual hiring. Lots of firms show up just to maintain public relations.</p>

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<p>I don’t know a lot about UConn’s law school but I think that cbreeze’s comment has some truth to it. If you have a look at a random sample of top NY large firms, my guess is that you will find that most have maybe 1 UConn grad, most will have zero. The exception to that is likely Skadden, which I’ve been told has many. I think that there are some regional/state law schools where it might make sense to attend but putting yourself in a dire financial situation is rarely a good idea, even for those attending top schools.</p>

<p>cellardweller, is that median salary for CT solely for lawyers who work in CT or does it include lawyers who live in CT but who work elsewhere?</p>

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In 2009, which was one of the worst years in history to graduate from, at least a dozen classmates I personally knew were hired by top NYC firms as first year associates. About a quarter of the class takes both the NY and CT bars. Several others joined top firms in DC and Boston. Well over 10% of the class joins biglaw and another 15% medium size national or regional firms.</p>

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<p>I’m just not buying that. Vanderbilt grads didn’t fare nearly that well.</p>

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<p>Good point. The number I quoted was for lawyers practicing in CT. A number of lawyers residing in Fairfield County, CT work in NYC and would have significantly higher than the average CT lawyer salary. They are not included in the average.</p>

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<p>I am not buying that either.</p>

<p>I have a close relative who is a senior associate for Skadden NYC and he has said that during the years between 2005-2008, Skadden hired more than 200 per class year just in the NY office and the quality of some of those lawyers were not up to par. In the last couple of years they’ve hired less than 80 per class year for their NY office.</p>

<p>Boies, Schiller & Flexner in DC hired less than 40 per year in the last few years. Before that, they hire more than 120.</p>