<p>I'm new to please excuse me if I'm way out in left field here...</p>
<p>Why would ANYONE want to go into a cut-throat educational environment so you can enter another cut-throat work environment so you can cat-claw your way to a giant salary and the disdain of everyone around you? Personally, there is not enough money on earth that would convince me to subject myself to what Harvard law and the "guaranteed" big firm job seem to offer.</p>
<p>Like most people, I'm fairly competitive and in want of a challenging, progressive educational environment. I also want to be surrounded by people from different backgrounds, with conflicting perspectives so I can garner as many viewpoints as possible from which to examine the more open-ended information we're asked to chew on. Eventually, I know practicing law will likely prove less fantastic than I'd like it to be, but I think I have something to contribute and would like to work with people who feel similarly - not people willing to slit my throat to make partner.</p>
<p>Maybe I'm in fantasyland here. Maybe I took too many literary criticism courses in college.</p>
<p>Are there other people here interested in finding a school that fits them in terms of programs available and faculty/students who suit/challenge them and who want to pursue a career that's more than financially profitable?</p>
<p>Since I am not a law student, I do not know if my reasoning on this matter is helpful. Taking that into account, I think the preponderance of competition stems from students wanting to join the Law Review, and also because of the opportunities one gains when they are at the top of their class. Not everyone attends Harvard or Yale Law School because of the expected financial security; a lot of students, such as me, desire to attend - or already attend - so they can become key figures in the fields in which they choose to specialize.</p>
<p>But considering that it's unrealistic to believe that one's chances of eventually becoming one of those key figures (hence the name) are very high, it just seems to me that more of us would be talking about finding a healthy and, more importantly, a productive niche in which to learn and then work.</p>
<p>I sought out healthy, cooperative schools. I had that in my undergrad, and I feel as if it made me a better engineer. Likewise, I believe that having such a good environment around me now makes me a better legal thinker.</p>
<p>Usually, the interviews, the jobs, the opportunities, clerkships, and the Law Review go to a very select group. That is the reason that people claw all over each other. I think it also might have to do with the debt - I'll have over six figures in debt when I graduate, and will need many options available to me when I graduate. (My ex did not understand this - thought I worked too hard - but honestly, I don't want this debt to dominate my life and I don't want to be deciding between 20 years of repayment instead of 10 or eating something besides Raman noodles.)</p>
<p>That all said, I prefer the healthier environments. I can't answer why people would put themselves through the competition - I didn't leave a career and I'm not going to pay thousands of dollars a year for my life to be hell. Just me. :)</p>
<p>Cwhite, I get where you're coming from, but then again my degrees are in literature. ;) There are people who thrive on competition. It actually brings out the best in them, and without it they feel somewhat adrift. Those are the people who, like natural athletes, thrive in a super-competitive environment that would crush or actually discourage others (like you and me) from doing their best. Generally speaking, creativity is fostered in a less competitive environment, because in order to be creative one needs to feel safe taking chances and exploring, regardless of result. </p>
<p>Somehow Yale manages to produce some pretty decent lawyers with its emphasis on building community. ;)</p>
<p>Also, though this is from Scott Turow's 'One L', some of it may have a degree of validity:</p>
<p>Nearly all of the students attending HLS were top students/professionals in their respective fields. Those individuals are accustomed to a life of continuous excellence and commendation for that excellence. Many students cannot deal with coming in 'second place', as they are conditioned as such.</p>
<p>I keep going to type something when I realize that I'll quickly degenerate into self-justifying. I know what I'm capable of and I don't need to prove too much. My work speaks for itself and always has.</p>
<p>I guess my next question is, how does one go about figuring out which environment will suit one best? Several here have been through this and might have some insight. I'm planning to visit four schools this late summer/fall. The info I've gathered is either via promotional lit and/or the internet. Thaaaaaaaaaaat's about it. Is visiting campus the best way to go?</p>
<p>I also ask because eventually my frequent flier miles will peter out - if visiting campus is a waste of time, I'll quit while I'm ahead (and my tickets are refundable).</p>
<p>There is definitely a lot of what Turow spoke of - students who have always gotten As and get upset at the Bs. Everyone hits it sometime, though - the time when they are just not on top. They are also students who spent four years having a lot of academic freedom - to choose their own courses, to write papers on whatever they wanted - and don't adjust well to the middle school nature of legal education. </p>
<p>All of that can make for a tense environment as people take out their frustrations on others.</p>
<p>IMO, you should visit campus - it's the best way to get a feel for a school. Listen to your gut - if you find yourself rationalizing why you want to go there, then don't even apply.</p>
<p>Well, first of all, there are some people who actually LIKE cutthroat environments. There are people who absolutely thrive in that sort of environ. For these people, winning really is the only thing that is important. You see this sort of thing in sports a lot. Some people have a tremendously strong drive to win at all costs. Michael Jordan, for example, was well known for his utterly ruthless desire to win at any cost. It's no coincidence to me that he has also won 6 championship rings. </p>
<p>Moreover, just because the people around you are cutthroat doesn't mean that you have to be. You say that you don't want to be the guy who has to slit other people's throats in order to get ahead. Cool, then don't do it. For example, why not go to Harvard Law (if you can get in), and do your best, but without violating your own personal principles, and if you wind up getting poor grades because of it, that shouldn't be such a big deal to you because you're at least following your own personal code of conduct. To each, his own. Like I said, some people really like to behave in a cutthroat manner. That doesn't mean that if you go to school with such people, that you have to act the same way. Even at Harvard Law, while there are some people who are absolutely gunning to graduate #1, because they're the ones who wnat to get the best job at the best firm or best clerkship possible, there are plenty of other students who don't care about that and just want to graduate, and if that means taking the not-so-good job after graduation, so be it.</p>
<p>Sure, I'm biased for the book I recommended... but I do think that 1L is overdramatized and outdated - at least it seemed utterly alien to my own experience. There are a few tidbits in there which are worthwhile, such as when Turow mentioned that a lot of the issue was that he is a bit neurotic and prone to that type of anxiety.</p>
<p>I'm almost an anti-feminist - too much of an engineer or I just don't care enough of what people think of me - but I still found Hirshman's book to be excellent.</p>
<p>"Why would ANYONE want to go into a cut-throat educational environment so you can enter another cut-throat work environment so you can cat-claw your way to a giant salary and the disdain of everyone around you?"</p>