Well, there are other grants too. Since I don’t receive any, the only other one I know by name is the “Florida Student Assistance Grant”. At least one of the kids of the four I described gets this one.</p>
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They aren’t. One lives in a dorm (but is moving), the other three live in off-campus apartments.</p>
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The home of the Gators. </p>
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Can you please teach me how to do this?</p>
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Well, I don’t know about that. If I already pay my own way through school, what’s the difference if my parents make less money? I get an extra $5.5k/year for doing nothing? Sounds like a pretty good deal to me.</p>
<p>So your parents do not give you any money whatsoever, nor have they ever given you any money that you were able to put toward school? They do not provide any health care coverage for you? They never help you with any costs whatsoever, including car, insurance, cell phone plan/bill, gifts, etc? The students with whom I have come in contact who are the “typical” Pell students have parents who struggle to make ends meet. </p>
<p>As for how to game the system by writing off income & lowering the AGI, business write offs and rental income are the methods of choice. Of course, it has to be legitimate for IRS purposes.</p>
<p>The stories about kids with full “need” rides driving fancy cars and living the high life are amusing anecdotes but unless I see the financials myself, I don’t trust that anyone knows all those details about other peoples’ financial situations. Kids exaggerate about weirder things. </p>
<p>Medwell, you need to appreciate what you have and stop worrying about what others have. Nothing good ever comes of it.</p>
<p>I don’t think there is any 1 solution that will make all parties happy. Is cutting pell grants a good idea? No, it would hurt too many kids chances at an education. Is going to a purely merit-based system a good idea, again no. It is one of those idealistic ideas that just is not realistic enough for a few reasons. Let’s pretend that there are different cut-offs for government grants at say 3.7, 3.8, 3.9, and 4.0. One challenge that instantly comes to mind is grade inflation. Not every high school grades the same, not every teacher grades the same. Another obstacle would be class selection. If you were guaranteed money for having a high gpa, why would you take the most challenging classes that you could? It would put you at a disadvantage to work harder for possibly a lower grade than a kid that takes just ceramics, cooking, piano, photography, etc…; as well as the most basic english and math classes up to algebra 2, and then do discrete or stats over pre-calc or calc. </p>
<p>If anything needs to change, lower the cost of a college education, or reform it a little. Instead of having requirements for a “well-rounded” education, allow students to graduate in 3 years-with classes only taken in their major and maybe a FEW elective of their choice. Students nowadays get exposed to a variety of classes in high school. In my state, for the highest degree it requires 3 years of 1 language taken in high school, so spanish 1 in 8th grade means a student MUST take up to spanish 4 to meet this requirement. Why then, should a student be forced to have a language requirement in college? This at least would allow students to save on 1 year of tuition + fees, and give them 1 additional year of earning power, or shorter time to become a doctor/lawyer etc…</p>
<p>If a college education is actually worth the price, why would you have to charge different graduates different prices? All students graduate with the same degree from the same institution, and are adults. They should all pay the same amount, no subsidized loans, no grants. period. Having middle class kids subsidize their classmates is insane.</p>
Is it really that hard to believe? My family isn’t American; I come from a culture where the idea of parents paying for school and living expenses for their adult children is considered somewhat absurd. I suppose I must be somewhat of an outlier in the U.S., seeing as how the entire college financial aid system is designed based on the notion that kids leech off their parents well past the age of 18, which is simply inaccurate (at least in my case). </p>
<p>The thought of my parents buying me a car is particularly amusing: I have never owned a car, I simply can’t afford it… I need that money to pay for school, rent, and food.</p>
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All the kids I talked about are brothers in my fraternity, so I know them quite well. Furthermore, I am in charge of academics in the organization, so I am very familiar with their academic/scholarship situations. </p>
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Don’t get me wrong, I’m glad I’m going to college (although I wish I could get a Pell grant to buy a car and live in a nicer place). I’m just pointing out some massive flaws in an incredibly unjust system. </p>
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No it wouldn’t! Why doesn’t anyone get it? If you take away Pell Grants, the only difference would be that the kids receiving them would have to take out loans and pay them back… just like all the middle-class kids that go to college. It’s not like kids that come from poor families are poor forever… once they graduate from college, they have equal earning power to everyone else graduating from college. Hence, they have equal ability to pay back their loans.</p>
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THANK YOU! Look, I’m so sorry that my parents did all right in life… but what does that have to do with me? and why does that mean I should have to suffer?</p>
<p>The problem with the last quote is that until the undergrad degree is reached, there is an expectation that parents help to fund college. How does one define adult? Most 18 year olds are still financially dependant upon their parents.</p>
<p>I will tell you a situation that I am aware of where there is a lot of financial aid help (private institutional merit and financial aid) to one family. Perhaps, Medwell, there are similar situations that you are observing. I know a family that has 4 children and 3 were in college at the same time last year (all expensive private colleges). All 3 students flew home for holidays (one attends school far away and the airfare is very expensive, the other 2 go to a school that is a 5 hour drive from their home). Additionally all 3 have I-phones with data plans! When one figures out the cost of each year for the 3 kids after FA packages, those parents are still paying quite a lot of money! I wondered how the parents were paying for all of “the extras” too. As it turns out, the parents cannot afford the flights and after one Thanksgiving where the oldest college student did not come home, a family member thought this was wrong and he is buying the plane tickets for all 3 students for their breaks. Additionally, this same family member has provided I-phones and data plans to the 3 students. I guess he could have provided a car that remained in his name, but he did not (perhaps this the type of situation that you are seeing and wondering about). I only happen to know the details because one of the college students just told us. It is none of our business, but he was just open about it all in a conversation.</p>
You can’t just make broad generalizations like this, though. Just because you write “EPC” in a little box doesn’t mean parents are going to write their kid a check for the amount. </p>
<p>That’s why I’m suggesting that we
Treat 18-year-olds like the legal adults they are
Reduce free money based on parental situations, which kids have absolutely nothing to do with
Increase free money based on merit, which kids have everything to do with
If kids get into a school that they can’t pay for fully using cash/merit scholarships (the usual case), force them to work part-time, take out loans, or choose a cheaper school.</p>
<p>Medwell, your way does not work because college is a BUSINESS. The schools rely on parents to pay through their savings, current income, and any loans that they decide to take out, and of course that is on top of loans students take out. That is the real world.</p>
<p>Oh, and schools are very happy to take Pell grant funds as well.</p>
<p>^ Great. So why can’t they rely on students to pay through their savings, merit-based scholarships, current income, and loans they decide to take out? They’re getting the money either way so why would they care?</p>
<p>(Is it really this difficult for everyone to imagine a world in which kids aren’t expected to leech off their parents past the age of 18? Pshh… Americans.)</p>
<p>It is because students do not have 20+ years of being in the work force so they do not have the resources to pay out of savings and current income. They also cannot borrow outside of Stafford and Perkin loans without a cosigner. They don’t have assets yet. That is the harsh reality and life is not always fair.</p>
<p>Yes, but I don’t consider it leeching. It is the norm for me and most of us. I hope you will break this cycle in your family that has put you at a disadvantage and will parent differently when it is your turn. </p>
<p>You seem to think it a negative to “leech” off your parents but have a strong desire to “leech” off the federal government. You might want to rethink the use of that word.</p>
<p>^ Au contraire. Ideally, I believe that the less involvement the government has with higher education, the better. I’m just saying that if the government absolutely must pump the money into the market, it should go to kids who have earned it.</p>
<p>I’ll provide an analogy to illustrate what’s going on. Let’s suppose (and it’s probably true) that rich people tend to pay for cars for their children. Let’s also suppose that most middle-class kids don’t get parental-paid cars (probably true as well), and have to either pay cash for it themselves or take out a loan for it.</p>
<p>Now suppose that the government steps in and says “Well that’s not fair, rich kids are getting automobiles as gifts and poor kids aren’t… let’s adjust this!” and they start using taxpayer money to give car grants to kids whose parents have low incomes. Now, rich kids and poor kids all get cars, but the middle-class is left stranded. Furthermore, now that everybody can afford a car, the auto industry will start to jack up prices. But they’ll get business anyway, because rich parents can afford it, and poor kids are handed the money to afford it. The middle-class suffers, and if they want cars, they have to take out big loans to pay for the government-inflated car prices. Unlike the low-income kids, they have to pay for it themselves, despite everybody getting the same benefits of owning a car.</p>
<p>See how absurd it sounds? Free money to buy something because your parents have a low income? But that’s exactly what has happened to college (and tuition prices) because of the government’s involvement.</p>
<p>If students had to fend for themselves using savings, part-time jobs, merit-based institutional scholarships, and private bank loans, colleges would have an incentive to keep costs down to attract purchases from thrifty students. But they don’t, because the government pumps money into the market.</p>
<p>The whole philosophy of financial aid is a little disturbing. It’s teaching students that debt is okay- that it’s even expected of them! I’m not surprised at all that this country has such a huge debt crisis. It’s not just in the government but in our society too. College needs to be made more affordable so that students aren’t sitting there trying to figure out if they’ll be able to pay back $100K in loans so that they can go to their dream school. </p>
<p>College confidential does NOT truly represent all college students in America. Trust me. Most of the people I’ve gone to school with do not have families that can just hand over tens of thousands of dollars for tuition. We don’t have parents who can/will take out loans for us or help us pay back our own loans. Even if we have to borrow money for the government it’s still from our own salary that every penny of those costs will be paid back.</p>
<p>I don’t know about everyone else here, but when I turned 18 I was an adult. I got a job, I paid my own rent, I paid for my own books, and I figured out how to pay for my own tuition. I also made my own choices about college, and luckily I have parents that trusted me to make my own life decisions. I learned to live independently and responsibly. You know, like an adult. </p>
<p>Honestly I wouldn’t have it any other way. I can’t fathom the idea of expecting my parents to pay an extra $15K a year to pay for my college costs. And a lot of students expect their parents to be able to pay much more than that. I’m shocked that especially ‘in this economy’ (as people love to say) people can be so surprised that parents just can’t hand over a ridiculous amount for tuition costs.</p>
<p>In this Ayn Rand libertarian wet dream of yours, only the richest 10% of American families will be able to afford going to college. Everyone else can go eat cake.</p>
<p>But I suppose to you that’s a feature, not a bug, right?</p>
Exactly, man. I don’t know why everyone finds this concept so hard to grasp… we’re living proof that it can be done.</p>
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What do you not understand about this? In the system TurtlePhobic described, if someone gets into a school they can’t afford with cash/merit-based scholarships, they can get a part-time job and take out loans for the rest, or choose a cheaper school. The money’s there, for people of all income backgrounds, it’s just not handed to anybody for doing absolutely nothing.</p>
<p>Please explain to me the difference between paying back a $20k loan when your parents make $20k/year and paying back a $20k loan when your parents make $200k/year. Correct answer: there is none! Your parents’ income has absolutely nothing to do with your ability to pay back loans after you graduate from college, since everybody graduates with the same degree, and thus equal earning power.</p>
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I couldn’t give you a specific number, but I’m imagining somewhere in the area of $45k-$60k/year. I’m using it to describe people that aren’t rich and aren’t poor.</p>
<p>Keep in mind that these terms only describe the people earning the salaries (i.e. the parents, not necessarily their kids). Many people (such as October47 and myself) would have the exact same lives whether our parents made $20k/year or $200k/year. When you’re a mature adult, your parent’s income ceases to matter.</p>
<p>Then your brilliant plan would cut most of those people off from being able to afford college.</p>
<p>Someone whose family makes $45-60k per year is almost assuredly taking out federal student loans. There are plenty of people (on the lower end of that bracket) who get Pell Grants too.</p>
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<p>Protip: The vast majority of college students would not qualify for such loans if they weren’t federally-guaranteed - which is, in and of itself, a subsidy.</p>
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<p>Maybe in Ayn Rand Fantasyland. In the real world, children of rich parents have innumerable advantages that flow from their family’s wealth. The student aid system properly recognizes this fact.</p>
<p>The only way your idea would make any sense at all is if parents were prohibited from contributing to their adult children’s living and college costs. No trust funds, no payments, no buying them a car, no nothing. That would be a level playing field.</p>
<p>Of course, that’s impossible and unworkable. So your system would result in a completely unbalanced playing field - where the kids of rich parents have mommy and daddy cut a check to NYU, while the kids of poor parents are screwed seven ways from Sunday.</p>
Nope. As I previously stated, the money’s there, it’s just not handed to anybody for doing absolutely nothing.</p>
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Objection: speculation! Under this system, all anybody would have to do would be to walk in to a bank with a reasonable plan of how much money they wanted to take out and how they planned on paying it back. (Kids going to college should have this exact procedure planned already, anyway.) Reasonable plan = loan. Unreasonable = find a cheaper school.</p>
<p>You seem to be conveniently ignoring the fact that there are two people in this very thread, myself and October47, that are financing our college lives and educations without monetary inputs from our parents or the government. You’re trying to claim that it’s impossible, but we’re doing it! If I can pay my way through college using part-time jobs and merit scholarships (and full-time jobs over the summer), how can you claim that most people would be “cut off” from being able to afford college?Please answer this question.</p>
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Look, I don’t even know what Ayn Rand is. But I’ll re-cap my situation: if my parents make $80k/year, but don’t give me any of it, how is my life any different from if they make $20k/year? And how will it affect me in any way when it’s time to pay back my student loans (if I end up having to take some out before I graduate)? Please answer this question.</p>
<p>And if successful, wealthy parents want to give their children the gift of a free education, that’s a choice they make. It doesn’t hurt anyone else. On the other hand, handing out grants and subsidized loans with no merit basis does hurt other people (tuition inflation, national debt, etc.)</p>