<p>"You can apply ED at Columbia and EA at Chicago as long as you understand that if you apply ED you are making a commitment provided the financial aid award is okay."</p>
<p>Thanks for clarifying, Mythmom. My point was that ED to Columbia is binding, if accepted to both, the student would be committed to Columbia unless there truly was a financial problem. In that event, it would be doubtful that Chicago would be a better financial option.</p>
<p>While it's quite possible she'll get into a few of the better schools on the list, it's important she'd be happy at Fordham. They have an EA option...and getting at least one acceptance before April would be a relief. (It didn't look like any of the schools on the list were rolling admission.)</p>
<p>"Strong English departments are rarer than one might think. "</p>
<p>Yes. </p>
<p>And to the poster who inquired, "English" traditionally means literature. Used to be that the emphasis was only/mainly on classic English literature, with some American as well. Over time, particularly recently, literature of ethnic & international traditions has been included, even when there is a separate "comparative literature" department. I notice that various colleges define the major & title the major differently. Some (like Sarah Lawrence) call it "literature." Others (like Fordham) name it Literary Studies.</p>
<p>But the predominant title for the major is still "English." (Unless there are distinct sub-majors, such as a Writing Concentration, a Literary Criticism concentration, etc.)</p>
<p>All Barnard students must do a senior thesis. My D chose her topic as a second semester sophomore. Junior year begins tomorrow and she is already doing research.</p>
<p>Match type schools-- Wellesley, Brandeis, CMU, Rice, McGill (first two suburban but easy Boston access)</p>
<p>Better do the math again on Columbia's FA. Our kid's GC was emphatic that turning down an early admit at Columbia for Binghamton or Rutgers or Maryland (to name three very popular safeties for kids in my neck of the woods who love Columbia) was acceptable; to turn it down for a better package at Vanderbilt or Emory or Wash U (also popular choices for Columbia loving kids) was verboten. Again, if the aid calculators suggest you'll be happy with the package you're fine, but if you've got some complications in your financial life like a business you own which doesn't have inventory (i.e. consulting or real estate brokerage) or a non-custodial parent with a significant income but no obligation to pay for college, or whatever, you might get a nasty surprise.</p>
<p>Re the attitude... I say you're lucky that she's found a safety she's excited about.</p>
<p>The financial aid award will come with the ED admission. If it is not acceptable (and can not be negotiated) the student would be released from his/her commitment before applying to other privates. Then there should be no problem because the student would have Columbia's "blessing", and the GC should haved no difficulty in sending out the transcript. We had to explain this to our GC as well; she was resistant, but we finally got through. If it is okay with Columbia, it should be okay with GC. Columbia has no way of knowing where the student is applying once released from the ED commitment.
The only thing ED does not permit is comparing FA offers.</p>
<p>BTW: My daughter had similar ideas -- she was desperate to be in NYC. She had taken ballet lessons there for years, and far from an overwhelming environment, she felt safe there in familiar surroundings. Besides, she is a Woody Allen style urbanite -- the country scares her a bit.</p>
<p>Both Fordham and NYU offered considerably less money than Barnard did. D did not apply to Columbia because she didn't want to jinx her Barnard application. She preferred Barnard and was paranoid that Barnard would think it was an also ran when it was her first choice. Applying ED certainly conveyed that, and I thought it was worth the risk. As it turned out, we also discovered that Barnard was the most generous with grant money save one.</p>
<p>"If it is not acceptable (and can not be negotiated) the student would be released from his/her commitment before applying to other privates. Then there should be no problem because the student would have Columbia's "blessing", and the GC should haved no difficulty in sending out the transcript. We had to explain this to our GC as well; she was resistant, but we finally got through. If it is okay with Columbia, it should be okay with GC. Columbia has no way of knowing where the student is applying once released from the ED commitment."</p>
<p>This is NOT what Columbia has said on their website. They will release you from an ED commitment, but only to apply to a less expensive school that does not compete with Columbia. Apparently (and I wouldn't know this for sure), the "527" schools (the major prestige privates) create a list of EC acceptances, and as a courtesy, abide by other schools' ED commitments.</p>
<p>And, if I were them, I'd do the same thing. Supposedly, they all use FA methodologies that are pretty close to each other (even though we have personal experience of different "conclusions"). So it is more likely that an ED commitment whereby Columbia met a student's need (as they saw it, even after negotiation) only to have the student renege, would be seen by both Columbia and others as "gaming the system". And it is also likely that future applicants from the student's school would suffer, as the GC could no longer be trusted.</p>
<p>From Columbia's website:</p>
<p>"Can I be released from my Early Decision contract because of my financial aid package?</p>
<p>It is extremely rare for a family to ask to be released from the Early Decision commitment for financial reasons. However, on occasion possibly due to a lack of understanding of need-based aid (i.e., they were expecting merit-based aid, they did not submit complete information when using a financial aid estimator, etc) families have requested to be released from their Early Decision contract.</p>
<p>It is the family’s determination that they cannot afford to pay for a Columbia education that allows them to be released from the binding early decision admission offer. The family must first speak with a financial aid officer, before the release is granted. Ultimately, it is the family’s decision whether or not they feel capable of accepting the need-based Columbia financial aid award. </p>
<p>Those who do opt out of their Early Decision contract are released to pursue lower-cost school options, such as state schools and/or schools that award merit aid. The admission offer at Columbia is then cancelled. A candidate who declines Columbia’s Early Decision offer will not be allowed to reconsider Columbia’s financial aid estimate during the spring Regular Decision cycle and will not be able to reinstate the original offer of admission. "</p>
<p>sorry that I cross posted.</p>
<p>I agree with mini that Columbia University publicly states what they do regarding backing out of ED for financial reasons.. They release 1 or 2 ED acceptees a year if 1) they can't make the finances work; and 2) ONLY to non-competing schools (they specifically said lower cost state schools.) They share data on acceptances with other members of the COFHE consortium (meaning all Ivies, virtually all prestige LACs, Stanford, MIT, Chicago, etc.)
It is stilll part of their FAQs</p>
<p>
[quote]
<p>It is extremely rare for a family to ask to be released from the Early Decision commitment for financial reasons. There are usually only two or three families each year that ultimately are released for financial aid reasons, and this is normally due to a lack of understanding of need-based aid (i.e., they were expecting merit-based aid, they did not submit complete information when using a financial aid estimator, etc).</p>
<p>T IS THE FAMILY’S DETERMINATION THAT THEY CANNOT AFFORD TO FINANCE A COLUMBIA EDUCATION THAT ALLOWS THEM TO BE RELEASED FROM THE BINDING EARLY DECISION ADMISSIONS OFFER. The family must first speak with a financial aid officer, before the release is granted. Ultimately, it is the family’s decision whether or not they feel capable of accepting the need-based Columbia financial aid award. </p>
<p>*Those who do opt out of their Early Decision contract are released to pursue lower-cost school options, such as state schools and/or schools that award merit aid. The admission offer at Columbia is then cancelled. A candidate who declines Columbia’s Early Decision offer will not be allowed to reconsider Columbia’s financial aid estimate in the spring Regular Decision cycle and will not be able to reinstate the original offer of admission. *
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I guess I was generalizing from my experience at Barnard. They made no such stimpulation. I am sorry I gave misinformation about Columbia. The ass't Dean of Admissions of Barnard really encouraged us to apply ED and was emphatic about their willingness to allow people out of the agreement for financial reasons, no questions asked.</p>
<p>I guess I am a born risk taker, though it was probably foolish. Still, there actually is more grant money at ED time. D is convinced that she wouldn't have been admitted to Barnard had she not applied ED. I guess we can't know, and I can feel very lucky it worked out.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Still, there actually is more grant money at ED time.
[/quote]
Barnard guarantees 100% need to all students and is need-blind, and it follows very consistent policies about loans & work study. So the grant money from Barnard is the same RD or ED -- it is based entirely on how need is calculated. </p>
<p>It actually is very formulaic. My daughter's grant was increased by several thousand dollars in September of her first year after we provided certain documentation to the college; and this year it was increased hundred in July after I had discussed certain aspects of our financial situation with a financial aid office. </p>
<p>Barnard did give my d better aid than any other college, but I am glad my d. applied RD and had those others to compare. </p>
<p>Here's the problem: suppose a financial aid award comes in that is weaker than expected? Assuming that the ED college releases the student to pursue other options, what if in the spring all the other schools that admit the student have even weaker awards? you can't go back an reinstate the earlier admission-- you've given up the spot. </p>
<p>I know that as a parent taking a PLUS loan to help finance my daughter's Barnard education, I'm somewhat happier knowing how much better the Barnard award was than the other colleges -- at least I am not left wondering about any what ifs?.</p>
<p>Of course it is wonderful when it works out, but I made clear to my daughter that ED was out of the question. I personally feel that the ED system is unfair and unconscionable when financial aid is needed, because the student has to commit to ED before having knowing what the award would be. It simply is not fair -- it gives the college all the power and all the benefit of the arrangement. And while students and parents are led to believe that their "chances" are significantly enhanced by ED, I think the main goal is to enable the college to lock in students who are at the top of the applicant pool or who have specific talents or qualifications that would make them highly desirable to the college. But when finances are a significant issue, being locked in is not a good thing.</p>
<p>double post</p>
<p>
[quote]
Those who do opt out of their Early Decision contract are released to pursue lower-cost school options, such as state schools and/or schools that award merit aid.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I think that "and/or" is pretty clear--it's not just "lower cost" state schools but also "merit award" schools.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I've been wondering what the scope of the ED-enforcing club is. It's plain that students who decline an ED offer can still go to a state flagship university, at least in their own state, but I have yet to hear of a student who declined an ED offer ending up at a "peer" of the ED university that also has full need-based financial aid.</p>
<p>Thanks for all the helpful discussion. Originally, our intent was NOT to consider ED. But after the NMSF notification, the Columbia site and alumni made this seem like an option we should explore. Our finances are unlikely to change significantly, but she's not going to be happy at Maryland. JHU has a great writing faculty, as does Goucher, but they are in Maryland--thus off her list.</p>
<p>I have encouraged her to consider Barnard, but mythmom's info may make her reconsider. We work in the book biz and know many authors and professors, some in a position to help--but at schools she is not interested in. The ED vs. EA will need to be discussed further with her. Like mythmom, our kid is simply urban at the core.</p>
<p>CMU is on my list, but not hers. Maybe we should visit there. Any others?</p>
<p>Thanks again.</p>
<p>Calmom: Actually, the Barnard FA office itself told us that when they calculated the FA at ED time it <em>was</em> higher than when the actually grant was made during RD round. Our circumstances had not changed so I assumed it was an institutional difference; perhaps our next year's IRS data was just enough different to change award. However, they had figures from both awards. I'm not sure why they told us. Being deferred (Ad. Of. told D confidentially it was because she was from LI) cost us a lot of money because of applying to many other schools and reduced FA award. However, since we are all managing to send her to the school of her dreams, it's all good.</p>
<p>I agree with calmom's last paragraph in post 32. Not to hijack the thread (maybe a new thread can be started on this topic), I think that the ED option is in need of reform. That doesn't mean that I think it serves no purpose. (One of those purposes, or results, is to reduce the number of applications overall in the system, which benefits everybody, including the colleges.)</p>
<p>I don't understand the either/or options. It seems to me that a private institution with a bottom line to consider has an interest in a student who is willing to commit & who has the dollars to commit. Not having that option might mean <em>less</em> financial aid for those who do need it, might mean a return of that institution to need-aware admissions, or even could risk the the level of resources on campus, for all students. </p>
<p>Right now, EA = win/win for the student; win/lose for the college (either/or)
ED = win/win for the college; win/lose for students (either/or) </p>
<p>Why doesn't every U -- who can afford to -- have both? A choice must be made at application.
Thus, non-FA students apply ED; their enrollment is binding.
FA students apply EA; their enrollment is non-binding.</p>
<p>This protects the financial interests of the institution, provides them also some level of yield predictability, and allows them to pick the best students from all categories of income. It prevents the kind of nonsense that mythmom's family had to go through (I agree that is extremely wasteful, & very common). And it broadens the accessibility to the Elites (the colleges most likely to afford a double option like that) to more segments of society, a goal they claim to have.</p>
<p>My daughter is a freshman at the University of Pittsburgh. Like your daughter, she wanted urban. Also, her stats were very similar to your daughter's, and she received a full-tuition, four-year scholarship and entrance into the Honors College. I don't know what the writing program is like, but Michael Chambon is a graduate. My daughter is there for Pitt's excellent East Asian Languages department. </p>
<p>The Oakland area of Pittsburgh, were Pitt is located, is home to many cultural centers and museums, and also to Carnegie Mellon (right next door). There are plenty of places to pick up food of all types, and shopping is very convenient. The Pitt kids ride the buses for free, and the system is extensive. They can even take a free bus to the airport. Pitt might be worth checking out, especially is finances are a concern!</p>
<p>Speaking of finances: We made the decision not to allow D to apply ED. It's probably a good thing that we didn't. In our experience, every college expected us to pay our EFC plus about $10,000 a year (I'm excluding the schools that gave her full scholarships). That would have been tough for us. So be aware that colleges decide what your need is, and they also decide how to meet that need.</p>
<p>I think a little caution re what schools are realistic shots is needed here. The OP has indicated a very strong but not truly outstanding candidate, even with the NM finalist prospect. The GPA and SAT scores are excellent but not dazzling. Same with AP scores, which are not supposed to be used for admission purposes but probably are. </p>
<p>Picture I am getting is that Columbia and Penn are reaches with some chance of admission but not sure shots by any means, so, talk of ED ethics and economics aside, the midrange of the list is what really matters--Barnard, for example. I would work toward finding one or two more school in the strong match category, especially if FA is going to factor. The OP's daughter may want to have a few strong options to choose from, and I am not convinced, barring hook or special factor not apparent to me, that Ivies will be among them, though they could be.</p>