With Colgate and Lehigh on the list, maybe consider the other midsize Patriot League schools: American, Bucknell, Holy Cross, and Loyola (MD)?
We didn’t have Naviance, but if it looks like a scattergram that is also available on a college web site that rhymes with “sheesh” (LOL), I had the same direction for my nonhooked son…that he needed to be in the upper right of the greens or, for a high match, at least in the middle of the green area, not in the bottom half. Same with GPA.
It is very hard to imagine that colleges will require test scores given the difficulty; I would really think that would change when 2021 application season starts.
We discussed ED last night and it’s not going to happen. With all of the uncertainty and the virus, my H just isn’t comfortable going that route. Wants D21 to have more time and, hopefully, to be able visit campuses in April to better make a decision. He’s convinced that ED apps will be down everywhere and maybe being full pay for RD will still be a little bump.
Also, U of M won’t be on the list. My H thinks it’s no different than her going to Illinois. Cold weather, large Big Ten. We are prepaid for Illinois so it would be super affordable for us and comparing the 70k Michigan price tag isn’t flying. He’s open to the other schools on the list because they are notably different than Illinois.
@homerdog – I took Michigan (and UCs) off my kids lists for same reason. Great schools but no way we’d pay private school price tag for big, large publics when we have very good in-state publics for one-third the cost. At least with other OOS publics the cost is typically closer to $45k. Sill more than in-state but I can justify in some cases.
And we have Michigan connections – both my parents went to grad school there and my brother did his residency. I was actually born there! Go Blue!
@AlmostThere2018 maybe Michigan for grad school if she goes. I seriously don’t know anyone there who doesn’t sing its praises.
Agreed! And I forgot to mention that Michigan and UCs don’t really give financial aid to OOS so that was another part of the picture. I admire our flagship, UNC, b/c they meet need-based aid for all students, including OOS. I realize that’s unusual.
Wouldn’t colleges having less ED apps mean better odds for your D21 if she applies ED? And if less students apply ED that means more students will be applying RD (lowering your odds of an acceptance in RD). Not following your H’s logic here…
Big IF, but if your D has a clear favorite come Oct/Nov I would seriously consider ED (or EDII if it’s an option) especially if it’s one of the colleges that are now test optional and your D doesn’t submit a score, the adcoms might be more receptive to reviewing and accepting apps in ED without scores early since its early in the process. If they need more kids with test scores for their class, they may be more inclined to add them in the RD rounds later on. Just a thought…
My D attends UMich and were from CA, specifically the Silicon Valley Area. We decided to “pay private school price for a public school” because the feel at UMich is like a large private, along the lines of a USC (SoCal). I think of it as a semi-private. 
Comparing it to the UC’s here, the student teacher ratio is less, Central Campus has a smaller feeling, so the campus doesn’t have a large feel to us. Shuttling between classs is a 5 minute deal. Majors aren’t declared until the end of sophomore year, seeing advisors and professors and registration, is so much easier. The UC’s admit by major. And changing majors isn’t always easy.
In terms of housing and food cost, post freshman year, A2 is much cheaper than Berkeley, Westwood, Irvine, La Jolla, Santa Cruz, etc.
And then there’s Ann Arbor and B1G sports. A2 is always rated as the best, or one of the best, college towns. And here in Silicon Valley, wear something with Michigan on it and get ready for people to yell “Go Blue.” Lots and lots of Stanford and Cal grads here, but UMich seems like #3 on the alum list here.
We just visited Santa Clara, even though I’ve been there several times over the years. Great campus, great school. Great local hiring. The surrounding area is “meh” with industrial buildings, SJ airport, Cal Train station, cheaper residential areas, etc. Currently, it’s on my D’s list.
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@socaldad2002 I think it’s also that Tulane, Wake, and Richmond may have merit money either for a dance scholarship or, in the case of Tulane, just regular merit. She can do EA at Richmond and Tulane. I just think my H isn’t into handing over the power to the colleges and thinks going ED helps them more than it helps D21. Whether it’s true or not, he feels like it should be a buyers market at this point and she will have choices this way. Sure, it might mean she has less of a chance at a reachier school but she’s ok with that.
@sushiritto we had Santa Clara on the long list. I’ve heard it described exactly as you say. It’s so far from us and, I don’t know, feels farther that NC, or VA, or MA. Wouldn’t hurt to apply. I do think she’d like it but I don’t know if she would be able to pull the trigger on a school so far away in the end. With S19 in Maine, we were just feeling better about having D going in that direction or southeast US instead. Maybe that’s limiting and dumb reason but there’s something about them being on opposite coasts that we can’t wrap our brains around.
@sushiritto Wanted to say that all of your reasons are good reasons for Michigan versus UCs! I get it! Compared to Illinois, it’s a harder sell I guess.
So, right now, the list looks like this
Definite apps: Wake, Richmond, Tulane, Colgate, Boston College
Likelies: William and Mary, Villanova, Santa Clara
Checking into it: Lehigh, Syracuse
So, not seeing a real safety here. Maybe Miami OH but it’s going to be a real stretch to convince her of that one.
@123Mom123 We are full pay so ED is locking in full pay. Not knowing how schools will look in the spring, I think H just doesn’t want to commit to that. He’s clear that she very well may end up choosing a school that is full price but wants to understand exactly what we are buying before she decides. I wish he was up for ED but I also don’t want D to make a mistake and choose the wrong school. Of the schools she was leaning towards applying ED (Richmond and Wake), they are the two that are the trickiest socially and we wanted her to really get a feel for those two before using ED and now that’s not really an option.
@homerdog - Your H’s reasoning makes a lot of sense. I agree with him. It’s the emotional part though of getting this process done “early” that is appealing to me (and I think you). BUT…your H is right that there is so much to still learn about schools between Dec and May 1st, especially if campus visits are possible, etc. and the state of the virus by then. I am feeling everything with and for you!!! 
@123Mom123 giving up ED bump is also a bummer…but I guess we just don’t know what the bump would have been anyway. I like to think she will enjoy any of the schools on her list and just hope she gets into two or three so that she can feel like she still gets a choice in the end. For S19, I was way into finding him the very best fit. For D21, I’ve lost that intensity a bit and think she would make any of these schools work. If we had a third child, I think I would just throw a Fiske book at him and tell him to go at it himself.
To clear up a few misconception about Michigan. They have been giving financial aid for about the last 6 years or so for OOS. Many get between $25,000-35,000 or course depending on their circumstances. Much of of this reported on the Michigan threads. Many get much more. They give out very few merit’s.
Secondly, it really hard to compare Michigan to other public even in the big ten. They run like a private. Rumors every year that they will turn into one. Not many public’s have their avg LSA gpa at 3.9 unweighted with 32-35 ACT. This is just a tad lower then the engineering students. The overall campus is much more academic then people realize. Also most of their majors are ranked in the top 10 nationally. This is why many find it worth it. It’s just not a normal public IMO and many others. Sorry not a rah , rah speech here but of course cost has to come into play.
I have to admit I didnt read this whole thread…If d21 is looking for mid sized, high ranking, rah rah — where is Notre Dame on your list?! Is it too much of a reach coming from the midwest?
Based on every post Ive read of yours, I dont see Lehigh (greek/stem/business focused) or Syracuse (unless in Newhouse) making your list.
Providence/Dayton/Fairfield/Dickinson as safeties?
Yes, I just know that hearing your S19’s story of how many of his peers who got in to reach colleges like Vanderbilt, all went ED. I use to argue that for the non-hooked applicant, that ED didn’t provide much of a bump but I am a believer now, for most colleges, that it does help everyone that applies. And even if you get deferred, it gives you another bite at the apple.
If you guys are looking for some merit, like Tulane, than no it might not make sense to lock in to ED (even though we do know some full pay families that did get some merit there even applying early decision).
@socaldad2002 ED big for Vandy from our school but a ton of kids (including S19) got waitlisted in RD. Every single one who took a waitlist spot got in. Something like eight kids! Not sure what will happen with D and Vandy. It’s her biggest reach for sure.
@Massmom10 ND checks all boxes but- Way. Too. Catholic. Just not an option unfortunately.
My nephews are at Lehigh and Syracuse but I’m not sure they are similar enough to your D for me to think through whether the schools might be a good fit. Nephew at Lehigh (actually graduated a year ago and loved it) sounds, personality-wise, like he’d get along well with your D. He’s very social, pretty confident, a hard worker and did pretty well academically in high school and then really thrived academically at Lehigh. Motivated and self-directed. Not ultra intellectual. He majored in business related fields and opted not to go Greek…his mother went there in the 80s and majored in Psych, I believe - she had a great time (she was also super social…less self-directed, less motivated. She didn’t go Greek either, and I know she had a fantastic time there).
Nephew at Syracuse had a very rough freshman year socially although he was very social in high school (captain of soccer team, etc). I think the size of Syracuse ended up being a bit overwhelming to him. He thought he wanted big school for the sports/rah rah culture, but it didn’t end up being the best fit. He stuck it out and is doing fine, but he probably would have been better served by a smaller school.
I’m thinking the suggestion of Bucknell as a safety might be worth looking into? Though your D has a very strong transcript and extracurriculars, seems as if she will do well in interviews, and is full pay, so fingers crossed you won’t need the safety in the end!
Lehigh is a big engineering school, yet it also has plenty of majors for this student.
IMO Lehigh fits what this student wants: perfect size, plenty of majors, beautiful campus, rah rah, Greek life, very social campus, smart students etc.
Lehigh is looking to increase their national recognition, and in my opinion would welcome a female from the Midwest if she shows interest. I would do a virtual tour and check it out. Interest is very important, but it doesn’t have to be in person.