<p>The discussion on this College Confidential page is expressly referenced, and Tokenadult's post giving "props to Princeton" is quoted (in part)</p>
<p>not counter-spin, just the truth. the truth is, more than five years after firing the first shot, and despite all the loudly trumpeted countermoves in the escalating arms race since, princeton STILL offers the most generous financial aid of any university in the country. no school, not even harvard, has matched its no-loan reform, which allows princeton students to graduate virtually debt-free. see u.s. news's rankings of student indebtedness - least debt:</p>
<p>The only reliable way to compare is for a candidate to gain admission to two schools and compare the actual aid offers, side by side. Details can vary, and the application can vary in particular cases, but for each individual candidate, it is the bottom line that counts:</p>
<p>For those who are interested, USNews calculates a list of schools which are the "best values" taking into account the net cost of attending each school for candidates receiving financial aid, and the fraction of admits who are deemed "worthy" of such aid.</p>
<p>Here are the "Top 10 Best Values" from the 2006 USNews "Best Colleges":</p>
<p>The first number is the fraction of students getting financial aid; the second number is the actual price paid by aid recipients (as opposed to the "sticker price"); the third number is the discount from sticker price paid by the average aid recipient:</p>
<pre><code> 1. California Inst of Technology 57% $13,197 66%
2. Harvard University (MA) 50% $16,323 62%
3. Princeton University (NJ) 50% $16,325 61%
4. Yale University (CT) 41% $16,838 60%
5. Massachusetts Inst. of Technology 61% $18,456 57%
6. Rice University (TX) 33% $14,073 52%
7. Stanford University (CA) 44% $18,775 56%
8. Dartmouth College (NH) 48% $18,242 57%
9. Duke University (NC) 38% $19,643 53%
</code></pre>
<ol>
<li>U. of North Carolina Chapel Hill* 33% $14,529 45%</li>
</ol>
<p>yes, the best values rankings are a good counterpart to the student indebtedness ones. the former may appeal more to EFC-paying parents and the latter more to loan-repaying students. it's worth noting, though, that harvard is "rewarded," in a sense here, for its relatively high tuition. harvard and princeton aid recipients pay almost identical "actual prices," but because harvard charges more, it boasts a slightly higher discount from sticker price.</p>
<p>While we're comparing apples and apples, my boy, we have to take into account that the great majority (over 70%) of Princeton admits are compelled to pony up a a sizeable additional sum for the so-called "eating clubs" - that is, if they want to eat and avoid being second-class citizens socially. That fee is not included in Princeton's overall tuition R & B number.</p>
<p>I rather suspect that the hidden (but largely unavoidable) "eating club" tariff substantiall exceeds and small difference in the tuition R & B number between the schools, eh?</p>
<p>no, no, no. first, the difference between harvard and princeton sticker prices is not exactly "small." for the 2005-06 academic year, harvard charged $1,462 more than princeton did. now, the additional cost of princeton eating club membership, beyond the cost of a residential college meal plan, "ranges from a few hundred dollars to over $2000, depending on the club." and the university offers loans, but not grants (the current bone of contention), to meet the additional expense. it's safe to assume, then, that even for most eating club members, the total cost is still cheaper than it is at harvard. still, of course, a fair number of princeton students join a co-op or go independent; for these students the total cost is even less. finally, let's not forget that harvard has its analogue in its "final clubs." i'm sure these "gold coast" institutions don't entertain for FREE the privileged few upperclassmen fortunate enough to be "tapped" for membership.</p>
<p>This is a largely ridiculous argument. Princeton and Harvard both have, on average, fantastic FA schemes The US news article shows they differe on average by TWO DOLLARS out of $16,000. i.e. they're pretty much the same!!</p>
<p>However, for individual cases they will vary quite a lot as their systems differ. So applicants should look at the individual systems rather than any average.</p>
<p>Interestingly, upon checking, I find that Harvard and Princeton will have an <em>identical</em> $33,000 tuition rate next year. How's THAT for a coincidence!</p>
<p>The only slight differences are with respect to room and board, which, as I have said, are hard to compare for a variety of reasons.</p>
<p>Trying to compare the Harvard "final clubs" - joined by an intinitessimally small fraction of students, with the so-called "eating clubs" - which are, in effect, a "mandatory option" option for the great majority of students, is ridiculous.</p>
<p>Virtually all social life in Princeton revolves around the "eating clubs" and "the street" - whereas Cambridge and Boston present many more diversions.</p>
<p>look, i don't deny that harvard and princeton both offer fantastic financial aid. quite the contrary. i just reject byerly's characterization of the daily princetonian article as "counter-spin" and his implication that, because of its primacy in u.s. news's best values ranking, harvard is somehow "ahead" already. i truly believe that, even acknowledging harvard's excellence in this area and even considering its most recent reform, princeton is STILL the more generous institution of the two - if only because its financial aid packages consist entirely, and not just largely, of grants that need not be repaid. this is a point born out by the student indebtedness - least debt rankings that i posted earlier.</p>
<p>I deny that your closing bit of spin is true, for students set to enroll or to return next September, and invite you to prove it, which I don't thnk you can.</p>
<p>Cross admits will be in the best position to make a real-world judgment about which financial aid offer is superior. And while the level of financial aid available is not the <em>only</em> factor considered by cross-admits, it remains true that in recent years the overwhelming majority of those cross-admits have chosen Harvard over Princeton.</p>
<p>This is not a new phenomenon, either.</p>
<p>SEE: <a href="http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=227689%5B/url%5D">http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=227689</a></p>
<p>from the original daily princetonian article:</p>
<p>"The University also remains the only school in the country that has eliminated loans from financial aid packages. If a student received two financial aid packages one from the University that required parental contribution and one from Harvard that did not the Princeton package could actually be more generous since it is loan-free, Durkee said.</p>
<hr>
<p>"Durkee said that he thinks the University's financial aid program is still more generous than Harvard's, but added that what is more important 'is that both of us are trying to make sure that there's extensive financial aid available and both of us are trying to make sure that students all around the country are aware that they can attend schools like Princeton, like Harvard.'"</p>
<p>also, princeton review ranks princeton #1 in the category of "students happy with financial aid." i'm aware of the methodological limitations of PR's rankings, but this seems one category where self-rating has value, and supports my contention.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.princetonreview.com/college/research/rankings/rankingCategory.asp?categoryID=1%5B/url%5D">http://www.princetonreview.com/college/research/rankings/rankingCategory.asp?categoryID=1</a> (registration required)</p>
<p>The Harvard initiative involves aditional grants - not loans, and it also "may be" that the reduced student contribution at Harvard makes their package relatively more attractive.</p>
<p>(It should be remembered that at Princeton, anyone getting aid <em>still</em> has a term-time and summer work requirement.)</p>
<p>The bottom line is that cross-admits should tear and compare. And lets not start citing those fraudulant PR "lists" as a reliable source of financial aid at school "A" vs. school "B". or a reliable "ranking" of schools in ANY category. You know better than THAT!</p>
<p>1) "The Harvard initiative involves aditional grants - not loans"</p>
<p>but, from what i gather, it is still not no-loan.</p>
<p>2) "and it also 'may be' that the reduced student contribution at Harvard makes their package relatively more attractive."</p>
<p>the point is dubious without hard numbers on required student contributions at both places.</p>
<p>3) "(It should be remembered that at Princeton, anyone getting aid <em>still</em> has a term-time and summer work requirement.)"</p>
<p>not necessarily. see:</p>
<p>Now you have really sunk low ... relying on Ronald Reagan-type "anecdotal evidence." :)</p>
<p>("Why just the other day, I just got a letter from a young girl named Katie, from Ames Iowa ... its right here in my pocket ... who writes: 'Mr. President, I believe everything you say!' ")</p>
<p>well, it seems you won't accept any "aggregate evidence," whether from princeton administrators, u.s. news, or the princeton review. in any event, this single bit of "anecdotal evidence," if true, flatly disproves your third point.</p>
<p>Fact is, the only thing that "proves the point" for any applicant is to offers side by side.</p>
<p>Of course, the "point" might be different for the next applicant ...</p>
<p>... or the applicant after him or her.</p>
<p>It must also be conceded that for a particularly desirable applicant, those initial offers might not be the last word, either.</p>
<p>The best evidence that Princeton is outbidding Stanford or Yale - let alone Harvard - for the most desirable "disadvantaged" applicants, absent an auditor's report covering all common admits, will be when Princeton's RD yield starts topping the list rather than trailing in 4th place (or 5th - counting MIT.)</p>
<p>Is the aid that you guys are referring to as loans the "self help offer (total job and loan)" that requires well under $4000 a year? Because... um... maybe I don't speak for everyone, but I can pay most of that off in one summer. It's not like you're going to be spending ten years paying off your college loans.</p>
<p>Princeton and Harvard are both good schools for financial aid and you need to look at the aid package on a case-by-case basis. I think we can leave it at that.</p>
<p>From a bill paying parent of a Harvard 09 that was accepted to both institutions, I looked at the bottom line. Loans are not free money, so they were subtracted off and added to the out of pocket expense for me. When I compared "out of my pocket" at each place, Harvard was cheaper. Because "NEED" can be figured many different ways at different schools, you can never compare apples to apples any other way. Princeton simply upped our EFC.</p>
<p>It is absolutely not true that everyone recieving aid at Princeton is required to work. Although I chose to get a small job, my financial aid offer made very clear that it was not compulsory, or even recommended, and I'm going for under half price. I also know someone here on full scholarship who didn't get a job, although I think it was "recommended" in her case. There are plenty of financial aid recipients who don't work. </p>
<p>The bottom line is that it depends on the student and the family.</p>
<p>Princeton's "no loans as part of the package" claim is just empty posturing - just add up the work study and the summer contribution part, and you'll see that it nearly matches Harvard and Yale's "employment and/or loan" part.</p>
<p>As for Harvard, the jump from $40 to $60 thousand as the threshold for avoiding a parental contribution is posturing as well, seeking to one-up Y & P through rhetoric and hoping to catch up to Yale in terms of selectiveness. If Harvard really wanted to <em>equitably</em> boost fin aid instead of using it to increase popularity, they would do a %age reduction for all recepients or not increase / even decrease tuition. </p>
<p>Or, for all three schools, especially Princeton, decrease or eliminate the <strong>student contribution</strong> rather than the so-called "loan requirement." I personally favor this last option because financial aid students ought to have the freedom to participate in whatever ECs they want, paid or non-paid, instead of being constrained by the need to work during school.</p>