<p>I am really not clear about the exception you are taking to the kids who have successfully completed AP courses who wish for credit for their efforts and education. This is one of those times I’m just going to let it go. Fortunately for my nephew, his AP credits counted so instead of repeating course material, he was able to achieve three degrees in four years.</p>
<p>^Here’s the thing. You just equated an AP course/exam delivered at a highschool with a course at a top tier college, suggesting students should “get credit,” and tacitly suggesting the AP is ergo an equivalent to a Dartmouth course.</p>
<p>The reason this topic is so vigorously discussed is that many parents and students have adopted the attitude that they’re going to “save time or money” by taking an AP class. And that would be true at a less rigorous school. But the sheer ubiquity of the AP now means that the 8% that might get a 5 on the exam no longer represent the much smaller percentage able to even gain admittance to top programs.</p>
<p>What’s interesting is that whether they realized they were going out on a limb or not (read the dart story in the earlier link) Dartmouth has taken a position that more closely represents the facts of the level of adequacy of the AP in light of its own rigorous curriculum.</p>
<p>AP was a way to prepare for the rigor of a top college. PREPARE. Not skip 
and that is how AP classes should be treated for top students – as preparation, not replacement – or else you begin to water down the academic integrity of the core of these programs.</p>
<p>Dartmouth’s decision truly isn’t very far off from reality of most top programs, even large publics like UCB and Michigan. At those publics, you can “place” for example into Calc 2 (which many will then fail, btw) with your AP 5, but you cannot use APs for distribution requirements or for degree-required courses. In this case, there is still some benefit by perhaps needing fewer electives and ergo being able to dual degree. At the same time, few of these flagship publics have nearly the financial generosity of Dartmouth and must also accept community college transfers, so for them it makes sense to allow the use of APs as electives.</p>
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<p>Except that folks graduating early from any of the Ivies or a highly selective LAC is extremely rare. Students do not go appy to a residential four-year college to get out in three, or to obtain a Master’s in 4. They just don’t. And if you read the Ashe blog posted earlier, the other Ivies admit it.</p>
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<p>While a lot of students – and parents, including me – think a double major is cool, most academics I know would prefer a student go deeper into one discipline, than broad across 2 or 3.</p>
<p>(Ingores closely paired doubles, such as EECS.)</p>
<p>Comparing AP credit from UGA to an Ivy school is silly. The 75th% off SAT scores at UGA is below the 25th% at Dartmouth. There are very few students at UGA that could get into Dartmouth.</p>
<p>Actually the mid-range students in the UGA Honors College compare pretty favorably with the mid-range students at Dartmouth.</p>
<p>Honors Program Students 2500
First-Year Class 560
Average First-Year High School GPA 4.04
Average First-Year SAT *1466
Middle-Range SAT *1430 – 1500</p>
<p>Columbia gives AP credits up to about a semester’s worth. Last I checked Harvard gives credit too. Most selective colleges give AP credit, though with some stipulations and limitations. The list is small of colleges that give zero credit for any AP courses.</p>
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<p>Dartmouth currently indicates that a few AP courses are equivalent to its own courses (presumably only for subject credit and placement in the future after it eliminates credit units for AP scores), although many are not:</p>
<p><a href=“Home | Undergraduate Deans Office”>Home | Undergraduate Deans Office;
<p>In other words, they were already rather selective about which ones they gave credit units or subject credit for, so the change is not as big as people make it out to be, assuming that they continue to give subject credit and placement after eliminating credit units.</p>
<p>Note also that one cannot just refer to all APs together as being equivalent or not equivalent to courses at a college, since the various APs vary in how many colleges accept them.</p>
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<p>But not for Columbia’s Core (aka distributives or GE’s). Columbia makes it quite clear that Core requirements must be completed on campus; i.e., AP credits could not be used to fulfill its Core. So a prospective Lit major, with a 5 in Calc BC and a 5 in AP Stats will still have to complete a Quant course in Morningside Heights. </p>
<p>Dartmouth has a similar policy for its Distributives. Cal-Berkeley has a similar policy for its Distribution courses. </p>
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<p>Correct. But AP credits are of little value in the major. (I randomly looked up two majors at Columbia, and both rejected AP credits towards major completion.) And most students who use the AP/IB credits uses them to fulfill the non-major requirements, i.e., GE’s/Distributives/Core. Otherwise, even at Columbia, the AP credits are essentially worthless. The 16 credits sounds great up-front, but from a practical standpoint, where is the value?</p>
<p>but since you keep mentioning Harvard and Columbia:</p>
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<p>ER, yes, Kmcmom. An AP cours/exam delivered at a high school and getting a certain grade is given credit at Harvard, Columbia and the vast majority of top tier college right now. That is the reality. And for those that are not, most all of them are saying that they will recognze that score/course as adequate preparation for a student to skip the “equivalent” (or not if they won’t give credit of it) given at that college and move on to a course that has it as a pre requisite. Where they are being hypocritical is when they are giving the reason for not giving credit that they don’t think the course prepares a student adequately but goes on to let the student use it as a prereq without further vetting. If they want to just get rid of giving AP credits for whatever reasons , they should just keep their mouths shut when the reasons don’t match up with the reality. </p>
<p>Clearly the info that was presented to those who made the decision at Dartmouth was wrong, given the comments that have been released in that article linked ion the prior page. So why D is going down this path is not clear since their reasons don’t hold water.</p>
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<p>With that, I agree. But the reasons given on this thread for NOT going down that “path…don’t hold water” either.</p>
<p>^I think that is partly because the discussion has been bogged down on whether this decision makes D more like Harvard or Michigan etc. Personally, I found the results interesting, that 90% of 5s were unable to pass the final exam. Also, the fact that those with 5s do not generally do better than those who do not have 5s.</p>
<p>^90% of 5s in AP psychology - which D didn’t give credit or recognize anyway. And, no studying for the exam either (not quite duplicating what a real student would do).</p>
<p>Why didn’t D try the same experiment with those that got 5s in AP Calc? Interesting that D will continue to place kids with 5s in AP Calc out of the intro class. So, it’s good enough for placement, but not good enough for credit?</p>
<p>I don’t understand the reasoning for not allowing a kid to “bank” a few extra credits as a hedge against real life stuff that happens (e.g., a bout of mono which causes a student to drop a class in a quarter; a non-English speaking professor in a non-core area which can’t be understood and, hence, dropped; a focus on that research project with a great scientist which may necessitate dropping a class to focus on the research for a quarter, etc.). The student may choose not to use the “bank,” but it is at least up to the student. This is especially critical for those on FA since FA can only be awarded for 4 years (any extra time needed to achieve a degree is up to the student/family to finance).</p>
<p>Dartmouth’s current policy does not give any credit or placement for AP psychology (which is well known as an “AP lite” course anyway).</p>
<p>On the other hand, the calculus ones are probably among the APs which are most commonly given credit or placement for at various colleges.</p>
<p>If anyone has see “A Race To Nowhere” this entire AP push in high school is addressed. Not too many years ago, an AP course was for the very top students who were completely ready for a more rigorous course. It was for a very small percentage of students, and a few AP courses were taken to prepare them for College. Now, it can sometimes seem as the majority of students are taking AP courses, and many are not prepared for the pace, and material of the classes. The Universities and Colleges created this frenzy, and now it is common for a student to graduate with 8 AP courses or more. The top tier schools suggest and require applicants to have taken many AP’s, and it is now becoming the norm. Too many students began down this path, and now it is catching up to many of those institutions. Students are commonly coming in with way too many credits…I agree with many posts~it is all about the $!</p>
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<p>Even when all the ‘facts’ – it’s extremely rare for any Ivy Leaguer to graduate early (so they are not losing any money) – dispute your opinion? :rolleyes:</p>
<p>btw: even if lots of students were graduating early – which frees up bed space – if the College was concerned about the loss of cash, they’d just admit 5-10 more Frosh and/or transfer students. (In particular, transfer students tend to be full pay.) No, the money angle cannot be the reason for D’s policy; it doesn’t pass the smell test.</p>
<p>A number of the complaints I’ve seen have been about how unfair it is that students can get loads of credit at other schools, and therefore Dartmouth (and the other highly selective schools), should also accept AP scores for credit. What these people are forgetting is that these students have a choice - they don’t have to go to Dartmouth if they don’t like Dartmouth’s policy regarding AP credit. If they want to graduate with 3 degrees in 4 years, they have that option - just not at Dartmouth. There are a number of other reasons why they might not want to attend Dartmouth - perhaps they don’t offer the degree program that student wants, or the depth of courses in a certain area. If that’s the case, choose a different college.</p>
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<p>But not at comparable schools! At all such schools, it is extremely rare for a student to graduate early. Even is students could theoretically, cash in AP credits and graduate early at other comparable colleges, the students choose not to. Thus, the “complaints” are about a pov that is essentially moot.</p>
<p>Forget the graduating early argument. What about the student with exceptional talent who wants to do a post graduate fellowship, devote himself more intently to a sport for a couple of semesters or conduct serious research, or publish a paper, or take graduate classes or get started toward a five years masters. The Dartmouth policy on credits holds this person of talent back, and he/she will choose a school which gives them these opportunities. I posit that Dartmouth, as a college, rather than a university, made this decision to 1) solidify the certainty of its cash flow and 3) to keep its students on its campus when it does not offer a wide accross the board program of graduate opportunities like a Columbia, Penn or Harvard could offer.</p>
<p>A warning. If the other Ivies follow suit, this will lead to their unravelling as the creme of American education, because there will be other top flight schools ready to jump into what they think is “their” space and divert the top students away.</p>
<p>How Dartmouth, and other schools, treat that small sliver of exceptional students is extremely important.</p>
<p>^^^ The big fallacy in this thread: If something is inappropriate for some, let’s ban it for all.</p>
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<p>I’m confused here as to what the problem is. If you are that student that is described above, choose another school. Problem?</p>