<p>If a Dartmouth freshman in Math had 5’s in AB and BC Calculus and the young genius tested out of Differential Equations and Linear Algebra, and had eight or ten more APs- (I actually interviewed a student applying to my alma mater who had 14 APs with 4s and 5s-yes these POTs exist and in this case she ended up at Harvard) he still would have to spend four full years getting a Dartmouth degree. Granting the degree without artificial time and pecuniary boundaries, as soon as excellence is demonstrated is true recogniton.</p>
<p>Is the degree about receiving a credential or getting an education?</p>
<p>Its about being all one can be.</p>
<p>Its about gaining the recognition and power to do more and reach for ever higher mountains,- and not explore valleys already mapped</p>
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<p>The real question, is how many of these PoT’s actually graduate in <4 years at other top 20 schools, (other than Singaporeans (whose government only pays for three years)? My guess is that this too, is a strawman. Do kids with a bunch of AP credits at Columbia probably leave early?</p>
<p>(And note, btw, Columbia will not accept AP credit for it Core courses – just like Dartmouth does not for its Distributives. So from a practical matter, they are less valuable than at first it seems)</p>
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<p>If speed is of the essence, attend a top public like Cal instead. With an extremely generous AP/IB policy, a PoT could easily graduate in 2.5 years. Of course, Cal doesn’t offer many Master’s-only programs, but then the PoT would be off to study at HYP or Oxford for a PhD by year 3.</p>
<p>There is plenty of evidence of the continuing demise of the most selective LACs. Unfortunately, the applicants are not smart enough to stop applying in greater numbers than ever. They really must not smart as they choose to forego the massive benefits of the superior AP and IB in exchange of an inferior college education that lacks the wonderful teaching experience of graduate teaching assistants. </p>
<p>/sarcasm</p>
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<p>Berkeley is very generous with credit units for AP scores, but considerably less generous with subject credit (in particular, AP scores cannot satisfy College of Letters and Science breadth requirements).</p>
<p>However, 5 or even 4 semester graduation in some majors is possible for freshmen coming in with large amounts of AP credit, without ridiculously overloading one’s schedules (though a “PoT” could very well be capable of that – another thing discouraged or limited at Dartmouth), if one schedules very carefully and plans everything properly from the start. But it 7 or 6 semester graduation is likely much more common among those who graduate early.</p>
<p>Dartmouth probably has relatively few “PoTs” trying to graduate early using AP credit; its students tend to come from wealthy backgrounds, and Dartmouth students may be more likely to have “Dartmouth experience” as part of the reason for attending, and not be in too much of a rush. But a place like Berkeley may have more “PoTs” of lesser financial means, or who may have chosen Berkeley on more narrow academic grounds (the “experience” being less important), so such students may be more likely to choose to graduate early (perhaps taking overload schedules often, which may actually mean that they do not actually need many, or any, AP credit units to meet the credit unit minimum for graduation).</p>
<p>S had 8 qualifying AP scores (mostly 5s, one 4)and received very generous FA from D for all of his terms there, including the extra summer term he decided to spend on campus. He did not use any of his AP credits (which included 3 foreign language exams, chem, bio, physics, one history, and calc BC). He did place directly into advanced courses in his major by virtue of 5s on both the Lang and Lit APs in that language. Either would have sufficed. There was no shortage of interesting and/or challenging courses for him to take.</p>
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^then what is the point of having them?<a href=“AP%20exams”>/quote</a>
They are useful for colleges that offer first year courses at the AP level.
They are less useful for colleges that offer first year courses that are more difficult than the AP classes.</p>
<p>My son attended a state U concurrently with HS that let him skip the intro science classes based on AP, and then take a mixture of ‘junior’ and ‘senior’ upper-level UG classes his ‘freshman’ year in college .</p>
<p>It worked well for him. If he had gone to e.g. MIT instead, I would have encouraged him to start at the intro or honors intro level.</p>
<p>More food for thought: [Dartblog:</a> “BREAKING: Faculty Was Misled On AP Credits Policy at Other Ivy Schools”](<a href=“Dartblog.com”>Dartblog.com)</p>
<p>My observation has been that schools like Dartmouth do not have many kids graduating in less than 4 years even when said kids have the AP credits that they could do it with planning. Those kids who go to such school do so wanting the full 4 year experience, from what I have seen. My kids for all their AP credits certainly did not graduate early. It just gave them some flexibility since certain base courses were covered credit wise. So they could go directly into the intermediate level coursee and have more leeway in changing their minds, exploring other courses. When one is busily trying to get those requirements covered, it’s not so easy to do. I don’t know how taking away the credi is going to affect kids. </p>
<p>An example, a kid with a 5 in BC Calc may be allowed to skip ahead to Diff Equ or Lin Algebra but gets zero Quantitive credits that may be needed for distribution requirements. If that kid is really done with math and wants to be taking advancec courses in language, for instance and spend his time on them, taking an advanced math course may not be somehitng s/he wants in the schedule, because they do take tiem. So s/he repeats a calc course or finds some other Q level course (if she’s had AP stats, has to retake that too if that’s a choice) It’ is rather ridiculous.</p>
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<p>Yup, and that has been Dartmouth’s policy (for years). It is also Columbia’s policy, (a school you mentioned up-thread). And as someone else noted, it is even the same policy as a big public: Cal-Berkeley will not accept AP credits for fulfillment of Distributives either.) </p>
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<p>Many colleges disagree in writing; but fortunately, there are 3,000 other colleges from which to choose.</p>
<p>Dartmouth-where your tuition money has been good since 1743 while your perfect test scores have no value starting in 2013.</p>
<p>As a prospective student who will have completed 13 AP exams, I personally don’t mind this policy. I agree with captofthehouse 100%. I just took my Multivariable Calc final and am going to start Linear Algebra next week. Although I do plan on taking diff eq, real analysis, and advanced stat courses, many students don’t need to nor do they want to and I see no reason to force them to retake a course they placed out of because they didn’t receive credit.</p>
<p>Some families don’t have much money. For them, APs is a way to get through school without going under. This is too bad.</p>
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<p>Dartmouth gives full rides to those families making less than $100k in income. No loans. Even if one was concerned about poor, and the lack of AP credit, Dartmouth gives those extra terms away for free.</p>
<p>It is cheaper for many Californians to attend Dartmouth or similarly ranked school than to attend a UC at instate rates. And UC is extremely generous with AP credit.</p>
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<p>There is no such requirement. Another strawman.</p>
<p>If I were a prospective freshman applying for class of 2018, I wouldn’t give more than a cursory glance to Dartmouth’s AP Credit and then get turned off by it.</p>
<p>Having that offer of using AP’s as college credit is a very nice, additional incentive to the GPA boost. </p>
<p>Honestly, how different will the material be in an Intro to Biology class compared to AP Biology? Ivy Leagues are prestigious for the quality of education, not the content.</p>
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<p>Introductory biology courses may vary. Dartmouth offers six courses, of which biology majors take one specific one (BIOL 11) and choose at least three of the five others (BIOL 12, 13, 14, 15, 16).</p>
<p>[Biology</a> Major and Minor](<a href=“Home | Department of Biological Sciences”>Home | Department of Biological Sciences)</p>
<p>The five courses appear to cover topics found in typical introductory biology sequences totalling 8-10 semester or 12-15 quarter credits at other schools, but the Dartmouth courses are the equivalent of 25 quarter credits if one Dartmouth course is equivalent to 5 quarter credits (the only way Dartmouth’s credit system makes sense, since the expected course load is 3 courses per quarter).</p>
<p>[Dartmouth</a> College - BIOL - Biological Sciences - Undergraduate](<a href=“http://dartmouth.smartcatalogiq.com/2012/orc/Course-Descriptions-Undergraduate/BIOL-Biological-Sciences-Undergraduate]Dartmouth”>http://dartmouth.smartcatalogiq.com/2012/orc/Course-Descriptions-Undergraduate/BIOL-Biological-Sciences-Undergraduate)</p>
<p>So an AP biology course that attempts to emulate an introductory biology sequence of 8-10 semester or 12-15 quarter units probably covers less material than the five Dartmouth courses cover. If a Dartmouth student chooses only three, s/he would be taking fewer topics in more depth, again not matched by an AP biology course.</p>
<p>Note that some other schools’ introductory biology courses list organic chemistry as a prerequisite or corequisite, so AP biology would not fully cover those courses either.</p>
<p>Of course, this does not preclude AP biology from being equivalent to introductory biology courses at some schools, or being accepted for majors where it is only a peripheral requirement even though it is not fully equivalent to the introductory biology course at that school.</p>
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<p>At least part of the prestige is in the admissions selectivity. Course content and instructional methods may be tailored for the students, but not necessarily (and may vary by course at the same school; e.g. Dartmouth offers a slow-pace freshman calculus for the worst-in-math students, but more advanced honors math courses for the best-in-math students).</p>
<p>The posters on this thread that think that Dartmouth is doing this for money so students can’t get out earlier than 4 years, Dartmouth is not for you. Nor is Amherst, Williams etc. The students at these schools want to stay in for four years…by choice. Why does their AP policy bother you? As has been mentioned in other posts, go with your credits to a UC and get out in 2 1/2 if that is your thing. I’m pretty sure that the academic integrity of Dartmouth will be OK without you. ;)</p>
<p>My nephew went in to UGA honors w 21 AP credits so in 4 years at UGA he is graduating with 2 bachelors degrees and a masters. On a GA Hope scholarship which means $0 tuition paid. Some of the posters concerned about not getting AP credits may be disappointed by not having the opportunity to get that far in 4 years.</p>
<p>dowerz, I don’t think students that are applying to Dartmouth are thinking…wow, I can’t double major. ?</p>
<p>I am obviously from GA. If my D had used her AP/IB credits at UGA she could have banged out a degree in a couple of years. Not her cup of tea. She went to a LAC with no core and hated to leave after her four years. Different strokes for different folks.</p>
<p>If you don’t like Dmouth’s new policy, move on. Most likely it wasn’t the school for somebody who is worried about this to begin with.</p>