<p>Very, very few people, including those who qualify, elect to take advanced standing at Harvard. Most people want the 4 -year campus experience.</p>
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<p>So, if one happens to be one of those (very few) top students with lots of AP courses who wants to graduate in 3 years then Harvard is the school for that person, but not D. Am I right? So, why not let the argument end here, instead of dragging it on? I do not mean you are dragging it. I am wondering why Consolation is putting people down and telling others they do not understand elite colleges such as Harvard and D … blah blah blah?</p>
<p>Dartmouth is apparently for bursar butt kissers. I can’t believe that after 30 years of granting AP credit, the students at Dartmouth have declined in ability.</p>
<p>If I were a current Dartmouth student I would be insulted that Dartmouth now thinks that I am suddenly an “impaired” item.</p>
<p>Dartmouth is also giving a troubling anti-intellectual message. AP and IB programs have vastly increased the opportunities for and acheivement of our top students. Now Dartmouth gives the message that our best will be subject to potential remediation if they show effort and take advanced work in high school. If other schools follow suit, our best students will withdraw from the AP and IB programs and the quality of our high school graduates will sink. In England, college is a three year expenrience with the rigorous A levels and IB diploma leading the way to achievement. It should be the same here, our best are as good as their best and should get on with the their MDS, Phds and other graduate degrees sooner. What a sad day for American education when Dartmouth steps backward as it has.</p>
<p>And the saddest thing of all is that since it is an Ivy League school, its panache alone will lead many students to sacrifice their potential to attend it despite its espousal of policy which is anti-student, anti-intellectual and motivated by a misguided pecuniary dimension.</p>
<p>Our great universities should be run by the professors and not the finance vice presidents. Education is about choices and those students who have demonstrated nationally recognized excellence should have the chance to move their education forward doing the most advanced work which they are capable.</p>
<p>achievement spelling fix</p>
<p>I’ve always been of the opinion that if you want college credit, take classes at an actual college, whether that’s dual enrollment or night classes, whatever. Especially if you’re talking an elite school like Dartmouth, I’d imagine AP just doesn’t compare. I think the lesson they’re giving is rather equal credit for equal work, not discouraging high school students. That’s the government’s job to make the curriculum up to par, which it fails miserably in most cases. </p>
<p>I’m sure professors have input as well and might be tired of ppl taking classes they’re not prepared for or avoiding classes, by using AP to skip the prereqs for example. I’m sorry but can someone explain why if AP is taken away, dual enrollment isn’t an acceptable alternative? My high school offered 0 AP, so i drove 40 miles for college credit, and that’s living in the middle of nowhere. That’s having few options. A lot of ppl crying about this kind of thing, guess I just don’t get it.</p>
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<p>You can’t believe that? I have some swamp land in Florida for ya 
Hi ho.</p>
<p>The University of Pennsylvania grants AP credit (almost exclusively for 5s). This credit is good for almost nothing besides gen eds and electives. However, Penn does not cap the amount of AP credit one can receive. As a result, I came into Penn with 13 credits (at Penn, one class = one credit), plus a waiver for Wharton’s introductory economics course due to my 5s on both AP Economics exams.</p>
<p>I am extremely happy because of this policy. I am still a Renaissance man, seeing as I know a lot about the world and strive to learn more every day. However, I am able to pursue three degrees in four years because of this (BSE in computer science, BS in economics from Wharton, MSE in computer science). I’m learning what I want to learn about — without needing to take fluff courses to fulfill diverse requirements. Let’s be honest, students will pick the easiest classes they can find to fulfill these requirements, like how many Wharton students use introductory music theory to fulfill a science elective.</p>
<p>We are Ivy League students. It should be assumed that we are engaged with the world around us. Given the level of literary conversations I’ve had with one of my friends in the English major, I don’t doubt that I know a decent amount of rhetorical analysis, symbolism, etc. Given my discussions with friends in the political majors, I don’t doubt that I have informed opinions of the world. However, what I want to learn is computer science and finance. Penn has allowed me to specialize to the point where I can pick up a master’s degree by the time I’m slated to graduate. Dartmouth’s policy will be severely limiting the flexibility of its students, and I can’t possibly support it after seeing how my college experience has been enhanced due to AP credit.</p>
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<p>Just because they don’t want to grant credit doesn’t mean that they don’t want to see that kids have taken APs. One can certainly say that it is a mixed message, but ALL of the schools that refuse to grant credit say that they look for evidence that the student has taken the most challenging courses available to them, and as long as the AP system provides that for most of the HSs in the US, they will look for APs. In addition, they do in fact grant advanced PLACEMENT for APs, and do not require students to repeat material they have already learned. So I don’t see this an an anti-intellectual move at all. (Quite the reverse, actually.) </p>
<p>In England, the BA is a 3-year experience because specialization starts after the O levels, at the very latest. (When I was at school in England, one actually determined one’s future course to some degree by choice of O levels, the course of study for which began in the equivalent of 9th grade. That was for independent school students. For students in the state school system, the 11+ exam started the process of determining one’s educational fate.) Whether that results in greater intellectual achievement than the US system is debatable. There are certainly some very good things about the system in England and in Europe, but this is probably not the thread in which to discuss them.</p>
<p>If people want to find a way in which D financially abuses its students, I think you would find that most current students would say that the dining service would be the place to look. :)</p>
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<p>Sorry, but that so-called conclusion is just speculation, opinion as it were. </p>
<p>I could argue the opposite point: since the vast majority of Dartmouth matriculants have previously taken and aced AP Calc, for example, by “re-takin” Calc 1 (or whatever number D gives it), the same students can have a much more in-depth intellectual and engaging discussion about that subject. (Indeed, that should be the case, since they already have mastered the basics.)</p>
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<p>Well yeah, but it is not. (And likely never will be.) So let’s not conflate the issues.</p>
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<p>Indeed, this is the case at many top colleges. But, Dartmouth does not grant credit to be used as fulfillment for “gen eds”, so for most matriculants, AP credit has been worthless for years. (This policy revision just makes it perfectly clear.)</p>
<p>I want to hear from the experts. Is the AP TEST equivalent to the intro courses at IVY League schools?? If so, and I get a 5 on my AP test, then let me jump right into the next level. We work very very hard to get a 5 on an AP test. I had 4 AP classes last year and 5 AP classes this year. They are hard. So let me know if they are the same as what I would spend a semester learning at Dartmouth and if so, let me take the next level.</p>
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<p>The AP curriculum was never designed with that in mind…</p>
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<p>That may be true at places like Caltech or Harvey Mudd (where having had calculus in high school is a prerequisite to freshman entry, and “calculus 1” there is more like proof-and-theory-oriented real analysis), but colleges which do not assume or require students to have had calculus in high school cannot make that assumption.</p>
<p>Indeed, Dartmouth does allow the strongest students in math to go directly to multivariable calculus (and even offers an honors version) if one places out of the introductory courses (Math 3 and Math 8) with AP credit or Dartmouth placement tests, indicating that its introductory calculus courses are probably not all that special:</p>
<p>[Math</a> Placement and Sequencing](<a href=“Home | Undergraduate Advising and Research”>Home | Undergraduate Advising and Research)
[AP</a>, IB, A-Level, & Transfer Credits & Placement](<a href=“Apply to Dartmouth | Dartmouth Admissions”>Apply to Dartmouth | Dartmouth Admissions)</p>
<p>Dartmouth also offers Math 1 and 2 to cover Math 3 over two quarters instead of one for the weakest students in math.</p>
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<p>I used calc an example for a reason: Dartmouth (used to?) highly recommend calc prior to matriculation (and the vast majority of kids will have taken AP as opposed to dual enrollment.)</p>
<p>The Calc recommendation used to be on D’s website, but I could not find it with a quick search (but didn’t look to hard, either).</p>
<p>Edited to add:</p>
<p>Found an old link, but policy may have changed in last couple of years.</p>
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<p>On the other hand, Dartmouth’s math placement recommendations (e.g. AP calculus AB with 4 = skip Math 3; AP calculus BC with 4 = skip Math 8) indicate that their freshman calculus courses are not particularly special, like those at Caltech or Harvey Mudd. Also, Darthmouth’s high school calculus recommendation is not a requirement for all.</p>
<p>Of course, a student still unsure of math placement could always take a Darthmouth placement test upon arrival, or at least look at old final exams from Dartmouth’s Math 3 and/or Math 8 to see if s/he knows the material well.</p>
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<p>Never said that they were. Never inferred that they were. </p>
<p>(I was just suggesting that the math discussions could be more in-dpeth if the students already had the basics coming in (as Dartmouth indicates that they do.) Again, not suggesting that they are more in-depth or “special”.</p>
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<p>I seriously doubt that there is much evidence that could support the above position. </p>
<p>If it could postulated that the AP (or its IB poor cousin) has increased the opportunities for top students, it remains that this should merely impact the high school life. In a way, it is hard to deny that the biggest benefit, and what is in fact sought after by its providers and users, of the IB/AB is the effective segregation of students. The “school within a school” and its not so veiled objective to separate the have from have-nots and offer a semblance of a private education but without the extra expense has been very successful, especially in the suburban world of education. But that does not change that the best programs -vastly debatable for most of the AP and the IB-- is still part of the HIGH SCHOOL curriculum, and mostly the mile-wide and inch-deep program that rewards rote memorization over critical thinking and plug and chuck over analysis and reasoning. </p>
<p>Further, why would the (absolutely correct) decision of a school such as Dartmouth reduce the desire of high school students to participate in the most demanding schedule? Why would a decision to use the AP as it was … designed be detrimental in any way? What is wrong to create an environment that allows for advanced placement in certain subject but insists that a minimum of classes take “locally” are needed to earn a diploma from a prestigious school? I would think that rather than diminishing the value of a hard to obtain diploma it increases it drastically, as the watered-down and glorified high school classes are simply incidental to the obtention of the degree. And for what is it worth does anyone really believe that a school such as Pomona has also been giving a troubling anti-intellectual message? And if they did how would that compare to the message sent by the academic factories that rely extensively on credits to graduate their students in a reasonable timeframe of four to six years? Really! </p>
<p>As far as the comparison to Europe, it is a non-starter. The transition from high school to college is much different than here, and the high school programs are much more standardized than in the US. Further, the Bologna convention introduced a common approach that is based on a 3+2 route to an advanced degree. Not all that different that our system of 4+1 for the students who consider obtaining a master as the new minimum in tertiary education. </p>
<p>Dartmouth’s decision is not a sad day for America. It represents a small step in the right direction, and one that attempts to reduce the heresy of a K-12 system that has spun out of control by caving in to the College Board pressures and buying the illusion sold by the snakeoil salespeople in Geneva.</p>
<p>I have always postulated that in the era of AP/IB the liberal arts college would eventually be at a major disadvantage versus large full scale universities with therir extensive graduate programs and professional schools. It is amazing how soon my prediction has occurred. I made this prediction when Williams first opted for this policy a couple of years ago.</p>
<p>The very best and brightest are not going to be satisfied with repeating Calculus I for which they earned a hign honors score on an AP test to have a more “in depth” expererience with material they have already mastered, at the cost of not being able have the credits to support taking a top flight masters level course in this subject( or another of their choice) sooner in their academic career. The tortured explanations given by several posters here simply run against the grain of all those who truly strive for human achievement. These persons of talent, let’s call them POTs yearn to be their best and acquire as much knowledge and skill development as possible. They want to get on with their education so that they can conquer disease or Wall Street or publish sooner rather than later.</p>
<p>What Dartmouth, is admitting ,is that as the least developed university in terms of depth and breadth of graduate programs and levelof research in the Ivy League, it does not have the capability to provide the high level course and research work that a POT desires (wants, yearns for). Dartmouth now says it will sentence the POT to four years of exclusively undergraduate courses no matter what the POT’s demonstrated strengths. </p>
<p>If this was an issue of achievement, Dartmough would have acted 40 years ago to not accept AP/IB credit. These tests have not changed appreciably for God’s sake. Dartmouth’s students abilities are higher than ever if one looks at their SATs and high school ranks! If it was an issue of course materal mastery, Dartmouth would have made the cutoff for credit a score of 5 on the Ap or 6/7 on the IB. By scuttling the AP/IB programs compIetely, Dartmouth is admitting is that without the kind of full blown academic program that a Harvard, Columbia or Penn has to offer with their many graduate programs, it can no longer serve a student population that en-masse is achieving nationally recognized excellence.</p>
<p>If Harvard, Columbia and Penn keep their present AP/IB policies and Dartmouth doesn’t rescind their latest one, the former group has the potential to divert every last POT (excluding those not in love with skiing) crosss admit away from Hanover, NH.</p>
<p>What POT, I ask you, will tolerate, going through the pain of completing a graduate course in the Dartmouth catalog and only getting undergraduate credit?</p>
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<p>With all due respect, this is a straw man. Dartmouth already recognizes the knowledge from an AP Calc BC course and allows students to take the next level math course, should they so desire.</p>
<p>btw: it’s also a really bad example, since Math is one of the few grad programs on campus; D even offers a PhD in math. (History would be a better example for the lack of a grad program.)</p>
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<p>Not sure if this is real (or just a silly) question, but I would submit to you that every year, thousands of undergrads across the country take grad-level courses for undergrad credit. It is quite common. Heck, some undergrad college honors programs require the completion of at least one grad level course.</p>