<p>Cuts will be made, but Dartmouth and other schools can find families who will contribute much more than just tuition, room and board.</p>
<p>I agree that they will not go need-aware unless HYP do. On the other hand, they can start quietly gapping people on FA, as so many schools do. Eventually that has repercussions in terms of yield, of course. Leaving aside the fact that it flies in the face of what I believe are the true ideals of the institution.</p>
<p>On the heating issue, it is true that capital expenditure is needed to make really dramatic gains. But we decreased our oil usage in our old house by 30% by foaming the sill, blowing 6" more insulation under the attic floorboards, and replacing our storm windows. Even at today’s oil prices, the payback is no more than 2-3 years. At $4 per gallon, it would be one year. And D could probably save significant funds without expending a cent simply by lowering the thermostats five degrees to 68 (I’d go lower, but I’m a hardy type. 
) A million dollars in savings is nothing to sneeze at. That’s got to be several assistant professors, even with benefits.</p>
<p>Bluebayou, what is “the WL”?</p>
<p>wl = waitlist where it is generally easier (I don’t know/ hope if Dartmouth in particular does this) for a college, even some that claim to be need-blind, to discriminate based on whether you are asking for financial aid</p>
<p>Consolation, is this an issue your DS would take up? Several boarding schools participate in a competition called the Green Cup Challenge. It would be an excellent idea to have a college level one. Can’t post Youtube here, but if you look on Youtube, you’ll find lots of videos on the Challenge. My good friend’s daughter was one of the founders, and it has saved these schools lots of money.</p>
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<p>That could get ugly. A little trimming of the faculty around the edges won’t hurt, but if they cut enough to really save some serious money, class sizes will go way up, TAs will do more teaching, and classes will not be offered as often, leading to an undergrad experience resembling that of a UC more than an LAC. UC Berkeley, UC Davis, UC Irvine, UC Hanover. It does have a certain ring to it.</p>
<p>Actually, I don’t think Dartmouth will cut that drastically. I think Dr. Kim will try to do a little bit of everything. Spread the pain around. Trim the faculty. Trim the staff. Trim the expansion and renovation. Trim the faculty salaries with furloughs. Trim the financial aid. Try to boost the donations coming in. Boost the number of full pay kids by one method or another without overtly violating need-blind. And boost the number of developmental admits. And hope that it all adds up to a number that closes the annual deficit but stills leaves standing something that resembles Dartmouth College.</p>
<p>I don’t think that they have sufficient graduate students to lean heavily on TAs. On the other hand, they could go to adjuncts, or year-to-year non-tenure-track hires with limited contracts.</p>
<p>Re the Green Cup Challenge–I wish he would. Unfortunately it probably reflects my interests more than his.</p>
<p>The financial argument going on on this board is purely speculative. You all have to remember that there is little proof that any of these financial aid reforms are going to happen, or even being considered. Frankly, I doubt Dartmouth is going to start “gapping” students on financial aid. Most colleges are trying to cut everything EXCEPT financial aid right now just because, in this economy, their yield would plummet if they start dishing out insufficient aid. I mean, I know we all love to think Dartmouth is the best university in the world, but if their financial aid packages go south, many students will choose to go elsewhere. For many people, financial aid determines where you go. It’s not just an added bonus.</p>
<p>hmom5, without any evidence to support your theory that Dartmouth will become need-aware or favor “rich” students, it’s just that – a theory. However, as an applicant I would not be against them trying to pick full pay students out for ED, so long as they maintain their dedication to socio-economic diversity during RD.</p>
<p>Also, because the average Dartmouth applicant is fairly wealthy, increasing class size alone would likely bring in a lot more funds. The amount of money you make increases with class size. It doesn’t cost much more to educate a hundred more kids. Relative to that, the up to $5,000,000 in tuition brought in by those students will go a LONG way.</p>
<p>I really hope Dartmouth doesn’t increase class size although it seems inevitable at this point. If Dartmouth does increase class size, wouldn’t Dartmouth ultimately have more UNDERGRADUATES than a school like Princeton and similar to the size of a school like Columbia?</p>
<p>^ ish.</p>
<p>Columbia currently has 5,600 ugrads
Dartmouth is at 4,100
and Princeton is 5,000</p>
<p>so…not really.</p>
<p>People–read Kim and the trustees’ comments in the Dartmouth papers. This is not so speculative. There will be aid changes. Kim specifically said this week they have not yet made decisions on aid. Meaning changes are coming or it’s the last thing he would have brought up! Dartmouth and all the ivies, if they chose to, could fill 3 classes with qualified full pay students.</p>
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<p>I suspect Dartmouth will lose some to state schools this year, but even if they bring back loans (and they won’t be alone) few private schools have aid packages that will be better. I don’t think they’ll gap, just maybe be a bit less flexible with the upper middle class. Only HYPS will have more generous packages, and Dartmouth loses the vast majority of cross admits to them already. Sacrificing a few yield points is probably just fine in the equation, it will allow them to go to the WL and cherry pick.</p>
<p>FA is not an entitlement as the vast majority of colleges show us. As we saw last year, colleges can change policies while admitting a class. When the endowments looked like all they could do was go up, Dartmouth and a handful of others could afford to embrace an ideal approach to admissions. Congress was pressuring them to spend more of the endowment income because they were starting to not resemble non profits. Harvard’s then president went over the deep end with spending, forcing the competition into the pool. </p>
<p>We now understand that this approach is not going to be be realistic at some points in time. The congressional pressure is off and the financial pickle is huge. The colleges are floating bonds to survive. Unfortunately, colleges have bottom lines and must be run like the businesses they are. Like businesses and people, they can be generous when they are flush, but when they’re not, and they are really, really not now, something has to give.</p>
<p>The trustees at Dartmouth and it’s peers have very difficult choices to make. Dartmouth is the key employer in it’s area. Laying off a significant number of workers has much more serious implications in Hanover than it does in Boston, Philly or NYC. A depressed Upper Valley will effect the Dartmouth experience. The College also has major goals/ambitions as are personified by Kim. There is no way they will trim significant profs or departments. </p>
<p>As Kim has said over and over, they just need to stabilize so they can build some great new profit centers and let the endowment recover. This was a key thing he was hired to do and he’s going to do it with the full backing of the trustees. He wants development to bring in 40% more dollars this year–where do you think they’ll start? Do you understand the concept of quid pro quo? This is something colleges understand well. </p>
<p>And although the PR machine is working overtime, the debate on taking additional students is a moot one at this point–they’ve already done it in the ED round. And who applies ED? People not worried about seeing aid packages and athletes who will be taken care of.</p>
<p>As applicants, think about what happens this year if class size is not increased. 120 fewer admissions offers will be made RD. Out of about 1100, that’s pretty significant.</p>
<p>So the real question is what happens with loans now–at Dartmouth and it’s no loan peers. I think they will continue full support for the under $75K families, but the upper middle class will see loans again. Maybe not for enrolled classes, but for new ones. And they will find other ways to bring in extra funds from students. They simply have no choice. </p>
<p>And whether Dartmouth will take an extra 15 students in the RD Round or another 40 is pretty much all that’s left to decide on that front. </p>
<p>In the end, Dartmouth will look as diverse as ever. They will have the same percentage of internationals, the same percentage of URMs, kids from every state. The student body changes will be so subtle you’ll have to look hard to find them.</p>
<p>And in several years they’ll have the money again to renovate all the dorms, build new dining and social spaces, add programs Kim champions and lavish aid dollars once again.</p>
<p>Just as a note of further interest, an announcement did recently go out to all undergrad students currently enrolled at Dartmouth that if all their financial aid materials were not submitted by the stated deadline some or all of their aid may be replaced with loans.</p>
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<p>One thing we lots of proof of is that they are going to have to do <em>something</em> different from what is hapening now. Because with its current financial structure the school has a big problem - a $100,000,000 budget gap between income and spending. And that hundred million dollar gap is not a one time deal - it’s a hundred million per year, every year for as far as the eye can see.</p>
<p>So we may be speculating about some of the ways the financial structure might change, but one thing that is not speculation is that it WILL change. And the changes will have to be significant.</p>
<p>raelah:</p>
<p>You are correct, as we ARE speculating. But your post is also inconsistent. In the first par you suggest that yeild would “plummet” if D reduces need-based aid, but in your last par you note that D “applicants are fairly wealthy…” </p>
<p>If the latter is true (and it IS for all highly selective colleges), then yield won’t take much of a hit if D reduces need-based aid. There are plenty of near-full pay families willing to attend. There are plenty of full-need families willing to accept a standard loan package (Stafford limits) to attend.</p>
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<p>By definition that is not need-blind. :)</p>
<p>I’m sorry to ask but what is a “development” case?</p>
<p>It sounds like mentally-handicapped students, but I know from context clues that’s not what y’all mean. Is it full-pay students?</p>
<p>Development case means extremely wealthy family (enough $ to put a name on the building), or well connected (scion of a world leader or top Senator), etc…</p>
<p>ansar – “Development case” goes beyond full-pay. These are applicants the Development Office would be happy to see enrolled. Generally, students whose families have substantial assets (trusts, foundations, etc.) they are likely to send the college’s way and for an extended period of time. Presumably the student, once he or she becomes an alum, will continue to contribute a good deal of $ and attention to the school. The ED student accepted at Dartmouth from my son’s school this year is an exceptional student who clearly deserves to be admitted, but is also a multiple legacy and a significant deveolpment case.</p>
<p>The battle for development students will be great this year and into the future until the health of the American’s economy recover and then strenghten. All top schools and ivies will be fighting to increase development cases. It is truely sad that the financial debacle has caused such pain to financial needy students. Unfortunately, the quality of student body will be the first to go.</p>
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<p>It really won’t, in fact, IMO, the difference will be negligible. Dartmouth and the others have been turning away well qualified wealthy kids by the boat full for the last decade or so to have broader representation. Andover, Exeter, Dalton, Harvard Westlake, Bronxville, Scarsdale, Beverley Hills, Palo Alto and the like have amazing students who just couldn’t get in the gate because of the middle and low income initiatives.</p>
<p>They had been accepting fewer legacies (that already inched up last year at Dartmouth and others) who again are often qualified, but the bar was high because of their backgrounds and the fact they wanted to hold them to a certain percentage.</p>
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<p>So true. Yet Dartmouth and the ivies have lots of alum who’ve decided 1)It’s suddenly much cheaper to be seen as a development candidate and 2)This really is the time to write the check, the schools really needs the money and my kid really needs the advantage in the new economy.</p>
<p>So many have and their kids and grandkids will get in and help the budget by paying full tuition, but as Kim also pointed out last week, most of these folks have designated where their money goes. They endow chairs, build social spaces, visual arts centers and indoor putting greens. These things make Dartmouth a place with amazing resources and keep top profs coming, but don’t close budget gaps. This is why the average student will have to take a hit too and why the colleges will not have the ability to hold on to lofty equity goals for now.</p>
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<p>Your last sentence does not logically follow from your first two. Because, as you imply, there aren’t all that many developmental kids out there. Even if Dartmouth somehow miraculously snagged them all it wouldn’t seriously dilute the quality of a student body of over 4000 kids. </p>
<p>A developmental admit is not some lucky kid whose dad earns a healthy high-six or seven figure annual income who would be pleased to donate several thousand dollars each year should his kid get in. No, we are talking very rich here. People with fortunes measured in hundreds of millions, or maybe even billions, who will donate enough to build a whole new campus building and endow entire departments. There is only a small handful of such kids applying to college each year.</p>
<p>when will dartmouth decide to increase class size or not?</p>