<p>interestingguy - it’s pointless to argue whether Caltech attracts stronger students or win most cross-admit battles against Dartmouth, UPenn, or Brown because there’s aren’t many cross-admit battles. Even when there are cross-admit battles, it’s more about fit than perceived quality/prestige.</p>
<p>Whether Caltech is a “well rounded university” or a “specialty school” is relevant. If you take out the athletic population at Dartmouth, UPenn, and Brown (leaving students who are there solely for academics), it’s very possible the SAT scores and other measurements of quality of students at these Ivies would be as high as those at Caltech. This argument is very valid and has constantly been used in defense of Stanford. If you look at the SAT scores of Stanford, they are a notch lower than corresponding ones for HYPM, and on par with Dartmouth and Columbia. However, Stanford has a much larger portion of it’s student body pursuing athletics compared to HYPM. Therefore, Stanford is on par with HYPM after taking this into consideration.</p>
<p>^ Not exactly. The main argument is that Stanford is simply less numbers-oriented. This is because Stanford is sufficiently selective that it could conceivably enroll higher SAT scorers if it chose to (but obviously doesn’t). Given Stanford’s HYP-level acceptance and yield rates (not to mention prestige), this is a very compelling argument. </p>
<p>The non-HYP ivies cannot select more for higher SAT scores than they already do without seeing their yields plummet (and correspondingly, their admit rates skyrocket). The tip-toppy students tend not to apply ED to these schools, so they just cannot pull it off. They would if they could, I bet.</p>
<p>“The main argument is that Stanford is simply less numbers-oriented”</p>
<p>No. The less numbers-oriented argument is a bs explanation came up by people who are too stubborn to accept reality. Stanford’s lower SAT score is caused by the fact it has a greater number of athletic elites in it’s student body. Duke (a school comparable to Dartmouth and Columbia) has a relatively lower SAT score for the same reason.</p>
<p>“Do you realize that Stanford rejects more perfect SAT scorers than it accepts?”
Where’s your source? Besides, HYP may well reject more perfect SAT scorers than they accept as well. You just can’t seem to accept the fact that schools that try harder to recruit athletic elites and offer them wonderful non-need based scholarships tend to have lower SAT scores.</p>
<p>“Given Stanford’s HYP-level acceptance and yield rates (not to mention prestige), this is a very compelling argument.”
Well, Caltech doesn’t have the low admissions rate or the high yield. This assertion of yours actually support my claim that while Caltech is a top school, it is too different to be included with HYPSM.</p>
<p>^ I honestly don’t remember the source. But I did read somewhere that Stanford rejects approximately 60% of perfect scorers. If I recall it later, I’ll be sure to post a link.</p>
<p>For all we know, HYP could all be rejecting more perfect SAT scorers than they accept. No evidence can ever prove the argument that a school doesn’t care about SAT as much, or a school care more about SAT, rendering the argument invalid. No one can prove that Caltech cares more about SAT scores, or that Duke doesn’t care as much about SAT scores; it’s useless to try to argue Harvard has higher SAT compared to Princeton because Harvard cares more about it.</p>
<p>It’s definitely useless to claim that a school cares more or less about the SAT than another school because no statistics would support these claims.</p>
<p>interestingguy - “You could certainly hypothesize based upon other measures of selectivity.”</p>
<p>Your argument is now contradicting itself.</p>
<p>First, you said Caltech is as good as HYPMS and is in the same group as HYPSM. I disagreed saying Caltech is definitely as good, but since it’s too different, it belongs in its own group.</p>
<p>You are now suggesting Caltech care more about SAT compared to other top schools because it has low yield and high admissions rate thereby insinuating Caltech belongs into its own group.</p>
<p>How so? I’ve maintained all along that Caltech belongs with HYPSM because of its cross-admit battles and strength of student body. Nothing I’ve said in this thread has changed, let alone contradicted that.</p>
Wrong. Duke’s scores are at least on par and arguably slightly higher.</p>
<p>Critical Reading
Columbia 660-760
Dartmouth 660-770
Duke 670-780 A&S, 690-770 Eng.</p>
<p>Math
Columbia 670-780
Dartmouth 670-780
Duke 680-780 A&S, 700-800 Eng.</p>
<p>Writing
Columbia 650-760
Dartmouth 680-770
Duke 680-770 A&S, 690-770 Eng.</p>
<p>ACT
Columbia 31-34
Dartmouth 29-34
Duke 30-34 A&S, 33-35 Eng.</p>
<p>As others have said, Stanford could easily admit such students if need be. All of the elite schools reject the majority of students scoring 750+ in each section.</p>
<p>I’m always surprised when I see Stanford’s average SAT scores. Stanford is usually associated with Harvard and Yale, yet it’s SAT averages are much lower, and are more similar to that of the lower Ivies.</p>