Dartmouth vs. UNC honors

<p>I already posted this on the UNC forum but I'd like to hear your perspective too.</p>

<p>I am an out-of-stater (Virginia) considering UNC (where I would be in the Honors program) and Dartmouth. I love both schools, and it's extremely difficult to choose.</p>

<p>Dartmouth pros: Completely undergrad focused, small, lots of study abroad opportunities, small classes, really motivated and intelligent peers, Ivy league prestige
Dartmouth cons: cold, expensive, I would be one of many with my aspirations and ambitions, far away</p>

<p>UNC pros: close to home, great town, honors status, cheaper, small classes (?- does the honors program have smaller classes?), many motivated and intelligent peers
UNC cons: bigger, 82% in-state student body, not as prestigious</p>

<p>I would really appreciate any and all advice you all have to offer. I love them both a lot and it's realllly hard to choose.</p>

<p>You quickly get used to the weather at Dartmouth.</p>

<p>It's MUCH more prestigious.</p>

<p>EVERTHING you do is "honors." EVERYONE you live with, study with, converse with, even eat with, is at least as smart as you. You'll learn as much at midnight on a Friday in your dorm as you will in the classroom.</p>

<p>In my opinion, there's really no contest. Unless the $$$ difference is huge, I can't believe you're hesitating.</p>

<p>well the money difference is kind of huge; i applied for financial aid from both schools but didn't get any, so dartmouth is $50k/yr and unc is $30k/yr</p>

<p>Dude, Dartmouth..( which is 45k not 50k ) for sure. What is UNC?... University of North Carolina.? ...if so, which one Charlotte?, Asheville? , Chapel Hill?....get my point?</p>

<p>I think the extra 15k is well worth the privilege, the knowledge you will acquire, the people you will meet and the satisfaction that you will have belonging to such an exclusive university.</p>

<p>UNC Chapel Hill Honors is nothing to sneeze at.</p>

<p>moviebuff, actually according to the college (which would probably know), with all costs included dartmouth is about $50k/yr. the issue is that if i have to spend so much money on that, i might not be able to study abroad, etc.</p>

<p>one other issue is that i'm not in-state. if i were in an in-state carolina person then grad schools would probably say "she went to the best in-state school she could because that was financially feasible." otherwise they will probably assume i just didn't get in anywhere better. thoughts on this?</p>

<p>well another way to look at it is that, "look this person went to unc chapel hill as an out of stater; thats a tough school to get into out of state, i'm sure this person had other, more "prestigious" options, but instead went for the cheaper school with honors" just a thought...... honestly both are great schools, if you like dartmouth then i'd say go there b/c of its greater intellectual stimulation but where everyone is on equal footing, whereas in unc you'll be sort of excluded as an honors student. unc is a lot of fun though, its not as easy a decision as ppl on this thread are saying, 20k a year is worth 80k in the end, which is A LOT and unc chapel hill is no slouch by any measure, it is a fantastic school with a great rep, not ivy league, but still, i dont think grad schools will fault you at all. and plus, you will have much less debt</p>

<p>You wrote,</p>

<p>"the issue is that if i have to spend so much money on that, i might not be able to study abroad, etc."</p>

<p>There is no extra cost for Dartmouth's study abroad programs. The cost of a term in a foreign country (tuition, room, and board) is the same as a term on campus in Hanover. Your only extra cost will be the plane tickets.</p>

<p>its quite easy to burn 15k WHILE abroad.</p>

<p>i think the choice (without considering money) is pretty easily in favor of dartmouth. you're literally talking about one of the best schools in the world - also, in the US, dartmouth comes #7 for grad school feeders. dartmouth has, in past years, sent more kids to columbia law (#4) than columbia itself has. if you'd like me to, i can pull up similar figures for harvard, yale, and stanford law, wharton, stanford, and havard business, and harvard med. i don't know much about UNC, but i'm willing to bet that the number of kids it places per year into one of the top 5 grad programs in any field is FAR dwarfed by Dartmouth (as are most schools). additionally, i'm not sure how big unc is, but i'm willing to bet the undergrad population is more than ~4500. that means dartmouth beats unc both in terms of absolute numbers of grad placement and percentages (if i'm right that it's bigger).</p>

<p>and think of the money this way. depending on what you're planning on doing with your education, having to spend (or take a loan) on an additional 20k/year could be pocket change. if you're planning on getting a job in the financial sector after college, given dartmouth's reputation in those circles and its tight, fiercly loyal alumni network, you could very easily be making six figures at 22 and (if you're smart and ambitious) seven by 32. suddenly the extra 80k doesn't look so bad at all. that's the thing about ivy league schools - if you decide to go into a very lucrative profession (as opposed to something more intellectual, such as academics, or political such as social/civil work), and if you actually take full advantage of your school, you're pretty much set. i don't like to count chickens, but given our intended professional tracks, the school we're at, and the kind of grades we get, i can say with a decent amount of confidence that most of my good friends (and hopefully I as well) will end our lives being worth at least a few million dollars. even if this is too bold a claim, i certainly know that the kind of employment opportunities you get coming out of a school like dartmouth ensure that the education will more than pay for itself.</p>

<p>having said that, there's a famous study (forgot the name) that's being widely read lately that states that students who get into ivy league schools but turn them down to go to state schools do just as well financially in the long run as their ivy league counterparts. this study, which was cited either in freakonomics or the world is flat, makes a compelling argument that the success of a graduating class is more about self-selection than any tangible benefit that the school itself provides. i'm inclined to believe, however, that this kind of statistic is more likely to apply to someone turning down an ivy to go to northwestern, uchicago, umich, berkeley, or some other highly regarded non-ivy (public or private). there's a difference between turning down an ivy for one of the best public schools in the country and turning it down for a school that doesn't make the top 25 in USNews rankings (though just barely). </p>

<p>this difference could be big or very big. if your professional plans include a field that requires networking and social capital (business, law, politics, journalism), then the fact that you're surrounded by other ivy league students who are all going on to do great things makes a HUGE difference. these are your network of contacts - when you need help, a favor, or anything at all, you can fall back on them, and you can rest assured that you have friends in high places. if, on the other hand, you want to do something technical like medicine, engineering, or another non-liberal art, then this difference is still big (i'm sure it wouldn't hurt bill gates if his best friend in college was jeff immelt), but not as big as before.</p>

<p>finally, if you look at the wall street journal's grad feeder rankings (here: <a href="http://www.wsjclassroomedition.com/pdfs/wsj_college_092503.pdf)%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.wsjclassroomedition.com/pdfs/wsj_college_092503.pdf)&lt;/a>, there's a pretty decent argument to be made that grad school placement is still much more of an old boys network than it should be. if you look at the top feeders, there's a disconnect in the hierarchy there and usnew's rankings of top undergraduate institutions. there are FAR more LACs in WSJ's top 50 than there are in USNews rankings. there also seems to be a pretty significant bias for private schools, especially those that are in the northwest. there are 15 public schools in the USNews top 50; there are 4 in the grad school feeder ranking (though someone should check me on that, i'm not sure i got all the public schools).</p>

<p>going to a more expensive, more prestigious school is a gamble, but a pretty safe one. you're around smarter people and you'll face stiffer competition to get to the top; on the other hand, even if you're just average in your graduating class, you'll do pretty well for yourself. if you're confident that you're not going to totally screw up your academics once you get here (you got in, right - you should be ok), then it's DEFINITELY worth coming.</p>

<p>I am a college snob, I'll grant you. That said, I understand the Dartmouth vs. Duke threads. I understand the Dartmouth vs. Pomona threads. I DON'T understand a Dartmouth vs. UNC thread!!</p>

<p>Ya' gotta go Dartmouth. In my mind, there's no contest.</p>

<p>"having said that, there's a famous study (forgot the name) that's being widely read lately that states that students who get into ivy league schools but turn them down to go to state schools do just as well financially in the long run as their ivy league counterparts. this study, which was cited either in freakonomics or the world is flat, makes a compelling argument that the success of a graduating class is more about self-selection than any tangible benefit that the school itself provides."</p>

<p>that "famous study" has actually been pretty thoroughly discredited as there were some severe problems with it.</p>

<p>i have been strongly considering both these schools as well, except for me it would be $0K vs. $50k.</p>

<p>there are so many things i like about both schools that i feel i'll never make the perfect decision</p>

<p>$20k per year times four years = $80k of additional debt. Unless your parents will borrow the $$ and they will pay it ALL back, no college is worth that kinda undergrad debt.</p>

<p>VeryHappy thinks, "You'll learn as much at midnight on a Friday in your dorm as you will in the classroom." HaHa! According to people I know there, what you'll be learning is how to abuse alcohol. Really, if Dartmouth is a financial stretch for you, I wouldn't stretch based on unrealistic, idealistic views of the "Ivy League" experience. I think Dartmouth and UNC-Chapel Hill are both great schools with totally different atmospheres and only you will know where you feel most comfortable If you're always feeling financially stretched and stressed this may not make for an optimal college experience.</p>

<p>
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According to people I know there, what you'll be learning is how to abuse alcohol.

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<p>Not true, ResearchMaven. My point was that at midnight on a Friday, you're likely to be arguing Nietzche or the ecomonic theory of something or linear algebra or the value of a study abroad program in China. </p>

<p>Dartmouth has an antiquated reputation as a boozer school simply because of Animal House, which was made when -- thirty years ago? Would you rely on your parents' assessment of a school's social life? I thought not. Then don't rely on an antiquated reputation.</p>

<p>Look at the threads on the Dartmouth forum. Everyone who has any current connection with the school has made the point that many people there either don't drink at all or only drink moderately.</p>

<p>
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There is no extra cost for Dartmouth's study abroad programs. The cost of a term in a foreign country (tuition, room, and board) is the same as a term on campus in Hanover. Your only extra cost will be the plane tickets.

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<p>Plus food (in expensive cities like London, no less), plus transportation (public transportation does cost money) plus I think on some of them you have to pay for your own food. So let's not get too carried away, please.</p>

<p>
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My point was that at midnight on a Friday, you're likely to be arguing Nietzche or the ecomonic theory of something or linear algebra or the value of a study abroad program in China.

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<p>Ehh, OK, VeryHappy, I'm glad you're enthusiastic about the school, but let's not go overboard. I mean there's weaving an optimistic picture, and then there's out and out fabrication. Fascinating conversations and debates happen a lot, but not on Friday nights. Let's keep our feet on the ground here. I don't think it's very sporting to lead people on to this extent. And besides, I keep saying that Dartmouth has enough merits on its own that it really doesn't need these embellishments to get people hooked.</p>

<p>To answer the OP, I don't think you should be putting quite as much stress on the two schools' relative prestige as some people here are suggesting, but I would still say go with Dartmouth. It has more resources than UNC and, I'm not sure what your post college plans are but like someone said it is one of the best grad school and corporate feeders in the country.</p>

<p>Xanatos: I"m the parent of an '11 and I was hoping . . . .</p>

<p>Rest assured that there are at least a few other '11s who enjoy late-night conversations (of varying seriousness) even on Fridays... I don't have anything against partying either, but I suspect that my idea of a "party" is probably more low-key than most people's. :p</p>

<p>Oh good. I'm happy my son will be surrounded by serious female students who enjoy a good intellectual debate.</p>

<p>(I hope he's not boozing it up at the frat house while you ladies get smart and learn from each other.)</p>