Dear colleges, You have priced the middle/upper of the middle class out, so...

Parents Forum
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<p>"more people would prefer to live in NYC than in Omaha? I don’t actually know anything about Omaha, so I’ll simplify the comparison to major metropolitan city vs. rural town. If so, then there must be some benefit to living in NYC that is offset, in practicality, by the cost advantages of living in Omaha. Off the top of my head, access to arts/culture and public transportation are some major benefits. "</p>

<p>If that were the case, metro NYC would be filling up with domestic in migrants. Guess what, its not. I mean its not emptying out either (not like the 70s when it really felt like it was). I think its about in equilibrium. Would be New Yorkers who want the bright lights coming from ohio, georgian, wherever. Offset by native New yorkers leaving for DC, florida, arizona, etc, etc. </p>

<p>I live in NoVa. You cant shake a stick without hitting an ex new yorker here. I met a bunch in Baltimore too. There are plenty of DISADVANTAGEs to big city life.</p>

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<p>I was born and reared in NY and had contacts here, including instate college, as I’ve said. Isn’t that the economically prudent thing according to this thread?</p>

<p>Now it’s a choice that my contacts enabled me to find work and I’m here?</p>

<p>The idea of relocation and choice is laughable for many reasons. And if some of you were stuck in my commute I think the desirability of this locale would also be called into dispute.</p>

<p>It is obvious that the FA aid system has some loopholes and some arbitrary features that are unfair. It is hard to devise a system that doesn’t.</p>

<p>I think mid-level privates that gap will become increasingly pressed for students, and that is more in keeping with the original subject of the thread.</p>

<p>Several pages back Hanna suggested eliminating smaller departments. I couldn’t quite tell by context if that was facetious or serious, but to my thinking that is obviously counterproductive to the quality of a college education.</p>

<p>We could send almost everyone to respiratory therapy school or accounting school and never have to worry about philosophy, classics, geology, astronomy, etc.</p>

<p>Or just convert all colleges to the study of biology, economics, English and psychology, which I believe are the largest majors at most schools.</p>

<p>Of course we need to preserve less popular areas of study or knowledge in these fields will die (classics) or not progress (astronomy.)</p>

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<p>Maybe laughable to you to move but not to our family.</p>

<p>Single mom of 5, living in Northern CA, did some research while oldest was sophomore in high school. Knew I couldn’t afford state tuition even with Pell, SEOG and w/s. So I did some looking around and figured out some CHOICES. </p>

<p>We packed up (think Grapes of Wrath), moved ourselves and drove 3000 miles to somewhere we could afford. And no, it wasn’t Omaha!</p>

<p>My beach bum kiddos became southerners. (reluctantly at first!) But seven years later things have worked out better than we imagined. Kiddos have all graduated high school (something us REAL low-income folks worry about) and #4 will be graduating in 2-3 weeks from college, one more to go!</p>

<p>NC in-state tuition is affordable even with little aid and that was what I was looking for, that and very reasonable grad school in-state tuition for med/vet/business/law school. If they commuted and worked, and won some departmental “scholarships” they would be able to attend. This was my “worst-case scenario” because of the choices I made. We knew then trouble was on the horizon for state schools in CA.</p>

<p>Moving all the way across the country where we did not know a soul was hard. But it was one way to make college affordable for our family.</p>

<p>Another option that we exercised before leaving CA was to have high school student take classes at our local CC at no cost to us. She was able to accumulate 58 transferable units she took with her to our new state college. She was able to graduate in less than 2 years. That also saved a ton. Again it was hard for her to do this but it is what made college affordable to us.</p>

<p>The kids had to leave their friends behind and start over for a better future not just for themselves but their siblings as well. They walked away from state championship teams and coaches. But again they were willing to sacrifice then for a better now.</p>

<p>Son that is graduating in a few weeks says we as a family accomplish more, push harder and realize our goals when we are outside our comfort zones. He is right, as usual!</p>

<p>As far as students receiving Pell Grants there are not many at his school, maybe 6% whereas as at D’s school it was around 82%. And most of the 82% were all taking large, large loans to attend. (She was at on OOS public on an academic scholarship-turned down the D1 scholie as the ac was worth more).</p>

<p>The difference between son’s friends taking loans and daughter’s was that not only are the Pell eligible taking loans but their absence from the family while at college was not allowing them to contribute financially by remaining a wage earner.</p>

<p>So although son had his college expenses paid for (FA package) he still worked all through college to assist us still at home. That is the purpose of SEOGs, to supplement the Pell.</p>

<p>Again what may be laughable or inconceivable to some is just what we did. We made choices so that they would have more options.</p>

<p>Kat</p>

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<p>And CA’s tuition/aid is not that bad compared to many states in the Northeast. Here wealthy people send their kids south, but I have also heard others speculate about a move for college purposes. Unfortunately, I suspect it will be a short lived option.</p>

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<p>I can only speak about the FA policies at HYP because that’s where I have a kid. So my comments were not at all intended for other schools - I have really no idea what goes on at them, same the few that offered my son merit aid (which I know is rare and not anywhere near as available as it should be).</p>

<p>I’m for the 10% rule of $150K. Believe me, at Harvard the school would probably double what it currently receives in tuition. Our household would still feel the bite but it would not be making us seriously worried over retirement and educating our other child.</p>

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<p>Well, that’s true, if these kids get in. That’s a pretty big “if”, and my argument is that so few of these kids get in that the advantage in financial aid is more than negated by the sheer difficulty in getting in, especially since they probably can’t afford all those fancy SAT prep courses, their high schools may be substandard, and they certainly can’t afford to do all those extracurricular activities that these schools do love so much. Certainly, if you can get in, you’re good to go, but most people won’t and too often people (not necesarily you, but many others) assume that “sure, Harvard gives great aid to poor kids” is the same as “sure, most expensive colleges give great aid to poor kids and they are as prominent in these colleges as rich people”.</p>

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<p>Kat – please forgive me. I didn’t mean laughable in that way. Good for your family. I meant laughable in REQUIRING folks to do this. That you could and did and it worked out is wonderful. And I know it was hard for you.</p>

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<p>“But you can see why Family B is ****ed, no? The implicit marginal income “tax” is beyond what most folks, even “socialist” Prof Reich, would consider reasonable.”</p>

<p>Of course I can see why family B is not only frustrated but !@#$'d off. But, I’d still rather be Family B than Family A.</p>

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<p>Mythmom–I do believe Hanna was being facetious, or at least asking those who are so sure that more money needs to be handed out better man up and say what they’re willing to cut in order to subsidize the very upper middle class. </p>

<p>And again, of course, no one is requiring anyone to do what Kat did (though she’s one of my most admired CC posters.) Again, Kat’s family represents another choice that people make. We all make choices, except the super-rich, who don’t have to choose, and the very poor, who really, despite the continued suggestion to the contrary here, have the very least number of choices, across the board.</p>

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<p>GTalum, as I said up above, we basically *were *family B, and felt most lucky to be so!</p>

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<p>What does this mean?</p>

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<p>“We all make choices, except the super-rich, who don’t have to choose, and the very poor, who really, despite the continued suggestion to the contrary here, have the very least number of choices, across the board.”</p>

<p>actually the average American family with a per capita income in the mid forties also has very few choices.</p>

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<p>And I am willing to bet no college official would suggest that with a straight face.</p>

<p>Perhaps- but our public school superintendent did just that.</p>

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<p>But the upper end of the middle class makes choices all the time. To have a parent step out of the work force for a decade or more- that’s a choice. For all the “mommy wars”, it is a fact that few people can step back in to a career at the same level or doing comparable work, plus all those years where the non-working spouse was not contributing to a retirement plan or getting benefits. Living in a suburb is a choice- it often means needing two cars, commuting, real estate taxes, etc. Declining a promotion at work because it will mean longer hours-- that’s a choice. Taking oneself out of the running for more visible assignments on the job because you like the flexibility of cutting out at 3 pm when you want to- that’s a choice.</p>

<p>I know people who have made all these choices and I applaud them for it. But don’t demonize the people (i.e. the women) who made different choices, went back to work when their 6 weeks were up, and now that it’s time for college have a wider range of affordable options.</p>

<p>I have a college friend who left a corporate job after her second child was born. She now teaches yoga at a local gym, considers herself woefully underpaid and exploited, and is on the verge of a breakdown over how they can’t afford their EFC and where’s the money supposed to come from. (I know, ironic for a yoga teacher!) She just refuses to see that she had a choice- and then continued to make other choices along the way. She isn’t a victim- she chose 15 years of living on a single income (her H) when they could have had two incomes and two careers supporting them. She chose to leave her company before her stock vested, and is now nervous about her retirement, what happens if H dies, etc.</p>

<p>Does she get a bail-out? She’s no victim, just someone who was tired and cranky taking care of two kids after a long day of work, and tired of the day care/nanny route, and figured staying home with the kids would be better for everyone. But it is a fact that she’s not all that employable at the moment with a bad economy and rusty skills and an MBA from 20+ years ago. </p>

<p>But I don’t have a lot of sympathy even though I try to point out that her D has many attractive options for college if she ratchets down her expectations a little. They can’t afford NYU (the dream school) which is where all the anger is going right now. They know they’ll get a lousy package and they know they’ve got another kid in HS who will also want a similar college experience. But does NYU have a responsibility, all things being equal, to subsidize their choices if their policy/use of financial aid wouldn’t otherwise result in much money from them?</p>

<p>This kid will go to college. she has benefited from the presence of a loving and caring parent at home every day after school (when so many low income kids don’t have that). She has benefited from living in a nice suburban town with good schools and she doesn’t have to fight off crystal meth dealers when she gets off the bus. Will she get a free ride from NYU? No. Can they afford their EFC? Probably not without a lot of pain. Are there other colleges which would be delighted to take this kid and where the parents can afford to send her? Of course. Not NYU, not BU, not Fordham, not BC, not Georgetown. But hundreds of colleges where she’ll get a fine education.</p>

<p>So it’s hard to muster a lot of sympathy for how the financial aid system “screwed over” this family. Yoga teachers don’t make as much money as Managers of Supply Chain/Logistics for a Fortune 50 company. And they do teach that in business school.</p>

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<p>^^I really like this post.</p>

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<p>Ditto!!!</p>

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<p>Terrific post blossom. It’s almost as good as</p>

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<p>@blossom: if they only had one income and the EFC is high, doesn’t that say that the H was earning a perfectly good living, and possibly, they could have done NYU on his income?</p>

<p>So much of this touches on where we’re most tender – our choices about our children and about our money.</p>

<p>The mommy wars indeed. My SIL (H’s sister) disapproved of my continuing to work with little ones. She also disapproved of the fact that I didn’t hold my fall b’day son back from K’garten, but that’s a different story.</p>

<p>I was fully supportive of her choices, but she wasn’t of mine.</p>

<p>Fast forward – we got better FA (H lost a lot of money in his business), I was able to keep the family afloat and we sent both kids to dream schools. She and her H were not willing to sacrifice any financial security and sent her older child to a totally inappropriate college because of a large merit scholarship. I don’t say inappropriate as a snob. The state u would have been much better. They sent him to a school that is known for training health professionals to major in English and become a writer.</p>

<p>Is she bitter and angry? Yes, because we did everything wrong (and things worked out) and they did everything right and they didn’t. That’s her explanation.</p>

<p>I think Hanna and Blossom and those of you who are stressing that we make choices and we should own them are on the right track. Honestly, I cried every night when I first went back to work when my S was 2 (had leave and a job to go back to.) Tenured college teaching jobs don’t grow on trees and I knew I would regret it in the long run if I didn’t. Still, I wasn’t a happy camper.</p>

<p>Then, we did take financial risks SIL wouldn’t take, again choice. I knew I would feel regret and remorse if kids didn’t get the education they could. Probably being a college teacher made me more sensitive to this.</p>

<p>There was agita and stress along the way. Sure there was.</p>

<p>Very little comes without a price. (Sticker price or discounted price – still a price, and an emotional price, too.)</p>

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<p>" But does NYU have a responsibility, all things being equal, to subsidize their choices if their policy/use of financial aid wouldn’t otherwise result in much money from them?" </p>

<p>we seem to have two issues running, perhaps my fault. the screwed upper middle class issue, and the cost of living adjustment by metro area issue. I presume you are addressing the former?<br>
because if you are addressing the latter, I think the situation is the opposite. The woman who chose to make less money, is like the person who lives in Omaha. And has a lower col.</p>

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<p>Husband has always looked for possibilities and jobs. Nothing in Omaha that would give us this standard of living and protection for the future. We have been looking at a number of “Omahas”. Unfortunately, H’s best position for job security and income, even relative to COL is in the larger cities. I hate it here and have examined the situation and possibilities up, down and all around. I really can’t argue with that. I’m always looking for a better way to go, and it would not bother me to move from here. I’d like to do so, but my preference is not a big factor in the decision. '</p>

<p>So this move to Omaha does not work for many people. We are not encumbered with family and connections anywhere, so that isn’t a factor, but for some families it is a serious consideration. College for the kids is the be all and end all. There are other things in life that can be important to a family as well. Some essential. A family that makes college choice for the kids the main factor in their life decisions either does not have many other important things weighing on them, or their priorities are askew. Health, family, safety, well being, security all are responsibilities we have for ourselves and our family.</p>