<p>^^ Yup. Would rather deal with the devil we know than the one we don’t.</p>
<p>applicannot - if a person chooses to live in Detroit (and could manage to get a job), he/she could live very well making under 100,000. This person could have greater buying power because of cost of housing. This same person’s kid could also be eligible for FA. Whereas a person making 150,000 living around NYC probably wouldn’t be able to live as well and wouldn’t be eligible for FA.</p>
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<p>This is the most rediculous thing I have ever heard of. That is not my definition of supporting oneself. They are living because they are not dead, but they wouldn’t be able to survive if they weren’t living off other people. Someone is surviving when he/she is on welfare too, but does that mean that person is self sufficient? A college graduate who is “writing a book” and living with his parents, just because he is not making any money, in your definition he is still living. In my book, he is surviving because of his parents. </p>
<p>This is off topic, but minimum wage in this country is not enough for people to live on, without subsidy from somewhere.</p>
<p>“The average tuition discount rate is somewhere around 40% and of that about 40% is awarded in non-need based aid. Sure, you have to have decent stats to get the private school discount but if your kid has decent grades, 1750 plus SAT scores and you bring 30K to the table, you’re going to be taken seriously at most private colleges. With slightly higher scores those colleges will compete financially with the flag.”</p>
<p>A little bit off topic but we did not have that experience. Our son’s SAT and GPA could not have been higher, and he brought plenty else to his applications, too. The privates who offered merit aid were still very substantially more expensive than our state flagship, even after factoring in the merit aid. The top privates, of course, offer no merit aid at all. My perception is that you have to go pretty far down the list before you’ll find a private university that will throw enough at you to be competitive with in-state flagship costs, no matter how good your credentials. I’m not saying there’s anything “unfair” about that, I’m just observing it.</p>
<p>And this is not to say my son didn’t have choices across the spectrum. A large handful of public flagship schools with very good football teams (outside our state) offered him full rides. We chose something different because we decided we could afford it. We did not choose the “top” schools, because we decided we could not afford it, which is the topic of this thread.</p>
<p>Yes, I was out of work for most of 2009 and incredibly happy to be making what I was five years ago. I forgot to mention that!</p>
<p>midmom,</p>
<p>If $150K income belongs to 94%, how many singles and retirees do you have to cut out to make $150K middle class? At 60%. Are a third of households in US singles and retirees? Another thing, Why should colleges worry about not having representatives from $150K-200K income bracket? If $150K belongs to 94%, $200K may belong to 96%. If so, they are losing representations from a meager 2% of population. It doesn’t seem very worrysome to me.</p>
<p>I am not boo-hooing for those making enough to not qualify for financial aid. I feel fortunate to be in that situation. What I am saying is that the reality of the economic situation given what has happened in the last few years and with the rise of private college costs to the levels they are right now, there are going to be some colleges that are going to have trouble if they truly need that level of tuition money to survive.</p>
<p>As to why a family would want to send a child to an expensive private school that is not highly selective and tops on the college rankings, such school often offer the B/C student who needs a smaller environment, smaller classes the best opportunities to go to college. In my opinion, those schools that cater to those student who are not top drawer students and test takers have the greatest challenge in bringing those kids to the level where they learn the materials necessary to go out into the adult world. Harvard hardly has a challenge with the caliber of kids and families that it gets in its ranks. </p>
<p>In “Colleges That Change Lives” , Loren Pope discusses the challenge such schools have vs the most selective schools that are getting the “natural” scholars. I agree with him. A 4.0+ student taking college level courses in high school with very high SATs and a well developed intellectual direction and motivation is going to do well where ever he goes unless he decides to slack. Not so, some kids who really aren’t sure they like school, are going to college cuz it’s the next step and they have nothing else they’d rather do. They are not taking the advanced courses, not getting the top grades, and getting by. It’s well worth the money to find a school that can take such a student and give him a good college education.</p>
<p>We looked at tiny Manhattan College. The school itself fits in a teacup, someone said, and I have to agree. But in this area, I know some top level engineers who graduated from there who are making a great living. I know successful graduates that were not top high school students that went there and then went on with peers from HPY to grad school, prof school and onto successful careers. I was talking to one such dad the other day. No, way, he said that he would have survived Cornell or Columbia at age 18. Even if he could get accepted there, he would have likely flunked out of their engineering courses. He was a 1000SAT B- student at age 18. Got an engineering degree from Manhattan College, MBA from Columbia some years later. Hires and is in charge of Columbia, Cornell and MIT grads as well as Manhattan College kids and kids from other less known schools. Engineering is a high drop out major. My hat goes off to those schools that graduate a high number of engineers who enter as 18 year old high schoolers without the high stats. Getting that info into those brains and giving those kids the motivation to work on that stuff is not easy. </p>
<p>That’s why I think those schools are worth the money. It is not the prestige factor, no. But something that is more important. I wish I could come up with the money to pay for a small private LAC for my high school student who is looking at schools right now. He has stats that just are not going to get much if any merit money, but he is exactly the sort of student who would benefit from a smaller school with kids like him there.</p>
<p>Two thoughts:</p>
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<li><p>Not all students at elite schools are paying pennies for the experience. In fact, few students at elite schools are paying only nominal sums. Look at the data. If you subtract off the product of % receiving aid and average $ aid received, the “average” total COA at Stanford is over $36k. It’s over $40k at Northwestern, CMU, and Cornell.</p></li>
<li><p>Colleges charge what the market will bear. If you pay the rack rate, they really don’t care whether you like doing so. The checks still flow in. Vote with your wallet. While I appreciate the OP’s good intentions, threads like this or letters to colleges or even bad press just don’t matter if people will still cough up the money. Quite frankly, I think it’s a better use of time to either pay and deal with it or choose a cheaper option.</p></li>
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<p>No, the point is to put as much discretionary income into education as feasible - and I believe education costs go far beyond college. Distance learning high schools are very reasonably priced and can (but not always) provide a great education. If a family wants to send a student to a very expensive school, it has to make sacrifices. Even low-income students who get “full rides” have a difficult time coming up with small EFCs, student contributions, or personal expenses. IF a family wants to send a child or two to an elite school, it can - but ugly sacrifices are necessary. So the families choose not to make those sacrifices, which is a move I completely agree with. But colleges see that those options exist and that some people are partaking, and then have expectations.</p>
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<p>This is definitely a problem that isn’t addressed.</p>
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<p>Well, obviously we disagree fundamentally. As long as all parties are consenting, one doesn’t have to be totally “supporting oneself” to live a great and capable life - that’s what family is for. Bringing families together is a great way, in my opinion, to save money. So, in my opinion, there’s no need to spend half a million dollars on a house in the suburbs. No one wants to live with their parents at fifty, but don’t act like spending a short period of time there, renting, living in a smaller house, living further away, living in a duplex or condo, etc. are non self-sufficient choices.</p>
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<p>Sometimes it’s good to get your feathers ruffled. We all make choices, but we have to understand that that’s exactly what we’ve done - made choices. My family made the choice of having a working car, an internet connection, and food on the table - and as a result, the electric bill is more than three month’s pay and cut off is impending. That doesn’t mean we’re entitled to financial aid. I am low-income in America but there are a lot of people achieving a lot more than me with a whole lot less in terms of means. Putting life in perspective every now and then is worth it.</p>
<p>There are around 1800 private 4 year private institutions in the us and the average price is around 25K. For those with incomes above 100K there are tons of choices. Unfortunately people, especially here on CC, tend to focus on a select group of colleges, very selective ones or colleges located in large and popular urban locations. Many of those schools offer significant merit aid for top students. Students at 100K income with over 30 on the ACT average around 20K in merit and around 27K in total aid at Boston U. Even with the high COA, not an insignificant amount. That same student at a decent LAC might well receive a similar package with a lower COA. Like all college app decisions, you have to do your research and know where to apply if you want the dough. But, that said there are tons of other options.
<a href=“http://www.bu.edu/finaid/apply/incoming_probability.html[/url]”>http://www.bu.edu/finaid/apply/incoming_probability.html</a></p>
<p>We live here in NY because the job market for my husband’s line of work was shrinking rapidly. We did not want to move here and resisted it for a while with him commuting. It was pretty clear that things were not going to change and after doing the numbers, and you did have to be a mathematician or accountant to do this analysis, it was pretty clear that we were going to be better off in NY. Since H’s pay is the only money coming into this household, his job situation had to take precedence in our decisions.</p>
<p>True, we could have live far, far less expensively in the midwest. But most of my husband’s peers who stuck around have had to early "retire’ . They are consulting on their own, because the jobs are not there. H actually got an offer a few years ago in Detroit that was tempting. The only problem was if that job disappeared, finding anything comparable there would be a problem, Here in NY there is a more job security in that there are more prospective employers here. When things went south economically, here, there were still options where H and others like him could find some jobs. Not so in many cities. </p>
<p>The problem is quite clearly that college costs are getting to the point now where too many folks cannot afford too many colleges. I expect some schools are going to hit crisis points over this. College costs have gone UP in a period when many, most famiies have been hit with a decrease in assets and income. Plus credit has dried up so that many small businesses are struggling. Our home equity line got cut. Any college expecting us to use our house to pay for colleges, is crazy, given that the market right now for this house is pretty much dead. Ain’t no way. I’ve checked. I’d unload it in a minute if I could. So we’re kinda stuck in a holding pattern there financially.</p>
<p>So job security is shaky. We’re older and have other family, grandmom responsibilities. Health issues. Took some hits in some other crises as well. It’s just not a smart thing for us to put that much money into college given what our family/life situation is. I know there are families who have folks working 3 jobs and squeezing a family of 8 in a small apartment in order to save the money for college. Yes, I agree that could be done. But college is not the only ball any of us are juggling, I don’t think. It’s not a matter that some of us in certain income brackets CAN’T pay for it. It’s a matter that in the balance of things, we SHOULD NOT be paying for it. When a college education increasingly starts falling into that category for families, something is going to give. I’m afraid it is going to be the lesser known private schools.</p>
<p>I’m trying to be respectful but c’mon. Give me a break. I have a very clear perspective on my life, both its challenges and its blessings, and it doesn’t take someone commenting on a public internet board to help me gain clarity.</p>
<p>My point is that even with scrimping and saving, there’s no way to come up with the $$ to pay for a private school education. That’s it. We don’t drive fancy cars, live in a fancy house, belong to a country club, or take elaborate vacations. The fact that we either have to find some sort of financial aid or look at cheaper alternatives isn’t a choice, it’s a reality. So stop painting as a matter of setting appropriate priorities. It becomes absurd.</p>
<p>“When a college education increasingly starts falling into that category for families, something is going to give. I’m afraid it is going to be the lesser known private schools.”</p>
<p>Probably true. Unless these schools can cut costs or develop very productive programs they’re probably going to struggle. They’ve been kept afloat for awhile by low interest readily available loans with continually rising limits. When families start to reject that approach, I suspect some of the lesser known privates are going to have to change or die.</p>
<p>I also suspect that state flags are eventually going to come under fire for high cost, too high admission standards and too many oos students. But that might take awhile longer.</p>
<p>I’m not asking anyone to make those sacrifices, but they can and will be done by others. If you don’t want to do it that’s fine, and I applaud it - I don’t think the sacrifices would be worth it - but at the same time, I’m trying to illustrate how it is possible and why colleges request that EFC.</p>
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<p>Okay. Then don’t pay for a private education. But at the same time, I don’t think the upper class should expect financial aid.</p>
<p>cptofthehouse, I think you’ve articulated what I’ve been trying to get at. The choices that we’d be forced to make to afford college tuition are unreasonable choices and therefore (at least in my mind) not truly choices at all.</p>
<p>The silver lining is that there are schools out there that will offer excellent educations without the enormous price tags.</p>
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<p>Again there are tons of choices for pretty good students (1750 SATs) and 100K income.
There are very few choices for pretty good students at 40K income. The whining is misplaced.</p>
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<p>Which is basically the conclusion I’ve been pointing at. The options are there - but they are tough (and you wouldn’t even consider them at all), but there are much cheaper options.</p>
<p>I have only read the first page, but I must say…ummm we have been saving for our kids’ college since the day they were conceived. We pay for college out of savings. We saved by taking fewer vacations and buying cheaper cars and home than the bank said we could afford. We assessed, for ourselves, what we could afford and our budget always included saving. We saved when we were poor and living in a cra<strong>y apartment and we saved more when we could. We watched other ppl around us buy fancy cars, clothes, houses and vacations. Some of them “can’t afford” high priced colleges and are pi</strong>ed that their EFC’s don’t meet what is required. Oh yeah, we also had our kids choose schools that were 10-15k per year less than the top schools and listened to some ppl question those choices. Sometimes we feel like dupes because we might have gotten $$$ from colleges if we didn’t have the savings. But in the end, it’s a better feeling to simply live within your means. Thank heavens, we have been fortunate despite the deflation of those savings in the market crashes. If only we had “sold early.” Nevertheless we have managed to scrape it together through savings for our cars, house, kids’ college and (hopefully) retirement. </p>
<p>It is amazing to me to see folks express frustration that college can’t be paid for in current earnings. Duh!</p>
<p>Also, colleges are commodities and price according to supply and demand. Demand has been high due to a demographic bubble. That bubble is the next one about to burst and colleges will be scrambling to attract students. Prices had better stabilize. In the 80’s some colleges disappeared and it will happen again.</p>
<p>I’ve looked at merit award % and they are no where near 40%. Even if 40% of the kids get a merit award, which occurs in fewer than 5 schools according to USN&WR figures, they are not going to get 40% of the cost of the school discounted. No way, no how. I don’t know where you are getting your numbers. </p>
<p>Take a look at the US News figures or College Board figures for merit awards. You can see what the averaga merit award is, and the % of students getting that amount. You can also see what the financial aid numbers are too. </p>
<p>If you are expecting those kind of discounts, you are going to be very disappointed unless you are using Momfromtexas’s methods. That means looking for schools where your kids stats are way above the norm of the school. Schools that are true outliers. And for kids who are great students, that can be a good alternative, as I believe such kids will make their opportunities where ever they may go. Looking at some of the knucklehead that could get through college and get a good college education in the right environment, I feel that it’s a shame that it’s so danged expensive. </p>
<p>Believe me, I’ve looked at all of the low cost alternatives. With S1 we went the athletic route since he was a national athlete. Could have gotten a full ride if he chose a school that was not a reach. S2 with his performing arts skills, went as cheaply as he possibly could to get the degree he did. If there were a state program within commutable distance, which there is not,he could have cut that cost. But he went to a state school with a nice merit award. Got into nearly every school where he applied, but didn’t get any more than $5K in merit money. We really focused on the $s with S3 who had the high stats. Even then we did not average any 40% discounts. No indeed.</p>
<p>I posted my source earlier, </p>
<p>[Tuition-Discount</a> Rate Hits Record High - Administration - The Chronicle of Higher Education](<a href=“http://chronicle.com/article/Tuition-Discount-Rate-Hits/64881/]Tuition-Discount”>http://chronicle.com/article/Tuition-Discount-Rate-Hits/64881/)</p>
<p>With decent stats you don’t have to pay full price and you can certainly get a lot more than 5K in merit. Perhaps you were unlucky. My D who had an 1800 SAT got offered more than 10K at several schools. The trend in recent years has been to up the merit awards and reduce aid based on need, so it didn’t really work for us.</p>
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that is a theory … I’d like to see some data to back it up. I know the Ivyies and other elite schools have become much more economically diverse over the last 50 years or so … I hear the theory they are losing ground with the upper middle class … but as I said I’d like to see some hard data that backs it up. My two anedotal pieces of evidence do not back it … first, the friends my oldest had made at an top school span the economic spcetrum with most being “upper middle class” (two professional parents … although we know zip about the specifics of their finances) … second, my kids public high school sends about 20% of the seniors to elite schools; it sure doesn’t look like finances are limiting choices significantly.</p>