<p>You know, everyone here seems to think that everyone knows what we at CC know. They do not. There are many kids out there whose parents have never been to college, and have no concept of the admissions game. Their kids go to public high schools where the counselors know about local colleges, and nothing about elite admissions. Their kid is doing better than anyone in their family ever had, and they only know the name "Harvard." No clue as to anything else. I should know. D's friend from HS, (exactly this background) was a soccer player (but not that good, so no recruitment) and a high B, low A student. (She was in my class, so I know). I never would have thought of her as H material. However, at the College Fair, the recruiter told her and her mother that she was exactly what the school was looking for - white, middle class, needing FA, poor EC's and above-average grades. Mother went around saying D was going to go to state U or H, just waiting for the FA offer to come in. I tried to tell her in a nice way that so many kids apply and so few get in, but she was insistent that they guaranteed her a spot. They were shocked when she was rejected! There are gullible, ignorant (as to the process) people out there. They still resent the $ they paid for the application. I told her about CC, but they felt they didn't need it, since she was a shoe-in at H.</p>
<p>These Monday morning quarterbacking threads are hilarious!<br>
I'm sure the OP would say the "$300" invested would be a small price to pay if her D was accepted. :rolleyes:</p>
<p>I agree with ejr. Not everyone has the kind of information we have here on CC. Even if you look at the school's websites and SEE the admission statistics, if you are a family less -versed in this process than those of us on this forum, when you get "personal" letters inviting you to apply and telling you how right X College is for you, you can easily get sucked in.
It leads to disappointment. I don't have a solution, and I agree with Xiggi that the schools are trying to cast a wide net. However, I can also see how families can be keenly disappointed.
It's like all the young athletes that think they are being "recruited" based on an initial letter from a coach or even the first phone call. Lots of disappointment.....</p>
<p>
[quote]
The only thing they lack are the phone calls from the call centers saying "Apply, Apply, Apply".
[/quote]
</p>
<p>They do call !!!</p>
<p>
[quote]
The reality is that those schools are KEENLY interested in every application to help build the BEST class they possibly can. Unfortunately, WE don't know how this optimum class is determined. All we know is that they feel they need to improve their performance and KEEP on changing it.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>So if ultimately the high number of applicants helps the school, in any way, why isn't the application free?</p>
<p>
[quote]
Not everyone has the kind of information we have here on CC. Even if you look at the school's websites and SEE the admission statistics, if you are a family less -versed in this process than those of us on this forum, when you get "personal" letters inviting you to apply and telling you how right X College is for you, you can easily get sucked in.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>BINGO !</p>
<p>Harvard education is a product. Even a well-known product needs advertising, whether it is Coca-Cola, designer jeans or Harvard (not saying that Coke or $200 jeans are great though :)), to reach the widest market possible and compete for whatever they are competing for: unique, smart applicants or consumers' coins. I'm not saying Harvard should stop all advertising, but I side with the posters who pointed to the flaw in this "personalized advertisement".</p>
<p>If Harvard should be chastised for anything, it is their deciding AFTER the application deadline that they would not have room for transfers next fall. Sure they're returning the $65 application fee, but what about the cost of sending SATs, transcripts and the Profile, the time and effort of profs sending letters of recommendation, and all of the work writing essays for their extensive transfer supplement?</p>
<p>Bad show H.</p>
<p>
So if ultimately the high number of applicants helps the school, in any way, why isn't the application free?
</p>
<p>What a dumb question. There is of course an optimum - it is in the school's best interest for the largest number of qualified applicants to apply. Make the application free and you run the significant risk of getting a huge number of mediocre applications from applicants who would never seriously consider the school if the application were not free. More importantly, something has to pay for all the countless hours spent on reading applications, etc. The $65 is the price for that.</p>
<p>Let's put a little of the burden on the high school counselors and career and college counselors (if you're lucky enough to have one.) </p>
<p>It's their job to write the letters of rec, but they can also give honest advice about likelihood of admittance. We have access to Naviance scattergrams that show our school's history with admissions. Maybe there would be fewer disappointed applicants if the counselors were clear about cost, admissions standards, and track record of admits, and actually spent some effort discouraging some of these students from applying. </p>
<p>If this conversation had happened in the fall, the OP might have realized she didn't have the stomach for the Ivy rejection probability before this week's events.</p>
<p>The more you learn to take rejection in stride, and keep your head up high, the better off you will be. When you shoot that high, you are bound to be let down a majority of the time. And even if you have but a few successes, can that really be seen as a failure? My friend applied to 20 of the top law schools and got accepted to 3. Is that a failure? No. He is now receiving a rewarding and challenging law education at Duke, after receiving rejections from Harvard, Yale, Chicago, Penn, etc. I applied to numerous internships last summer in my major. I didn't get the top few but ended up with a great one that helped me out immensely in determining what my future goals should be. Failure is all completely relative.</p>
<p>Maymom I am sorry that you are upset. Its harder when its your child who is hurt or disappointed. Please do vent on CC. In my opinion, try not to let your child see that you are upset. They (again my opinion) still watch for clues from their parents as to how to handle a rejection. </p>
<p>My best wishes to you and your son or daughter. I am sure there is a bright future ahead.</p>
<p>Considering that Harvard takes the Common App, and, to the best of my recollection, does not require any supplemental essays (other than an optional one) I'm not sure why it took your daughter ten hours to apply. </p>
<p>In any event, I agree that she has a terrific future ahead of her, wherever she winds up.</p>
<p>Personally, I'd like the money back from the Collegeboard for all the Profile applications that were unnecessary. What a ridiculous concept: paying to apply for financial aid.</p>
<p>Re: Riverrunner's comments about HS Guidance counselors. Getting a good one must be a crapshoot also. (My mother in law is a retired HSGC so I have to be careful here.) The one my son has downplayed my son's chances of getting into any of his desired schools. I was honestly in tears in her office after he went back to class. I knew the schools she was recommending were not a fit for him and would not challenge him. We did not apply to any of her recommendations. It seemed she had a cookie-cutter choice of schools for everyone (a generalizqation I am sure). He applied to Georgetown, UVA, P, H and B. Got accepted to Georgetown EA, accepted to UVA w/likely letter, accepted to P, waitlisted at B and summarily rejected by H. </p>
<p>I guess my point is that the student and parents would benefit by doing their own research. The libraries have lots of books about colleges and there are also a lot of online materials.</p>
<p>
<p>What a dumb question.
</p>
<p>There are no dumb questions...</p>
<p>What a great perspective, Devilsrule.</p>
<p>We parents hate to see our kids suffer. But I know that the disappointments my S has experienced have prepared him well for so much of what life brings. It is actually a good feeling knowing that he is likely to handle whatever obstacles may come his way, because he has bounced back from them in the past.</p>
<p>Kelowna, I think 1of42 started weekend partying early ;)</p>
<p>Does anyone really think that simply charging a $60-70 fee works to discourage applicants? I think the best way to weed out "unwanted" applications from not so qualified or interested students is to put an extra essay barrier and charge a fee to pay someone to read them. While $65 application fee alone may not deter an applicant who is just tossing his mediocre credentials into the electronic pile, having to write a bunch of little annoying essays discouraged many at D's school from applying to Stanford or other top schools requiring them.</p>
<p>Knowing my kids, an extra essay would be a bigger barrier to applying than a $65 application fee... </p>
<p>Seriously, H doesn't need to charge app fees. They don't even need to charge tuition. Our Heavenly Father should have as much money as Harvard...</p>
<p>The sort of advertising in my opinion is "overreaching" even in contract and commercial law there are safeguards in place to protect the consumer from this type of behavior. Although my D received correspondence from other Ivy schools, she only applied to H because of the additional "personalized" emails. Even after the initial December deadline, she received another email saying "we know you are busy but apply as soon as possible, don't worry about the deadline just get it in as soon as possible". She initially had no intention of applying to H but these emails were persuasive. I am upset about the amont of time, money and the fact that it diverted her attention from applying to other schools or doing other things. She is heavily involved in music and her AP classes, her time is valuable. Let's be clear, it is not my D that is upset, I am. My hope with this post is that those highly selective colleges reevaluate how they "market" themselves and the financial costs that get passed on to families and taxpayers as a result of their "casting the wide net". They don't need to engage in this type of marketing to obtain the "best class possible", they should be smart enough to figure out how to do this other than on the backs of families and school systems.</p>
<p>Maymom1:
I want to clarify that colleges do not make money on admissions. Application fee does not even cover the costs associated with review. Look at it this way. You paid $60. The review takes:
1) File multiple pieces of application sent separately and arriving on different days (3-4 letters, transcript, test scores, application, additional FAXes on achievements). 1 hour
2) Put student's name into the database and update incoming documents. 30 minutes
3) Answer student's E-mails and phone calls. 30 minutes
4) Check that application is complete. 10 minutes
5) Read Application. Three readers, 20 minutes each, 1 hour
6) Committee discussion. 3-5 minutes 12-20 people; also 1 hour
Sum: 4 hours 10 minutes plus postage. Their admission officers are paid at least $15 an hour, so this is not profitable.
I personally do not remember Harvard being agressive. Same as all Ivies - couple packages in the mail. From what I saw, Ivies were not concerned about getting too many applications. They get enough. Their admission officers came to DDs school on college fair nights - all were "apply if you are interested; we are very competitive, it's not about scores, you may get in without perfect GPA or SAT and may be rejected with perfect stats". But NOBODY ever indicated that any kid could be shoe-in at top Ivies. I do not know, but sometimes parents are hearing what they WANT to hear, not what they are told.
Apparently there was something outstanding about your daughter's achievements that made her an interesting candidate. And then apparently the remaining of the application was not good enough.
Since several of DDs friends got into Harvard and other HYPCSMs, she could compare. Some kids are just brilliant and they have multiple HYPCSM acceptnces. For them these schools were match schools. Others? Normal kids like DD, just lucky to get into one reach school and rejected by others. My daughter was waitlisted by Harvard. If she didn't apply to HYPs she would have no waitlists or rejections (and we would have saved some money). But .... she would also not have tried any reach schools (the next group of universities she liked were already in top 10-15 range). I liked how someone wrote here that you SCHOLD get at least three rejections (and DD got less than that).</p>
<p>There is a NACAC report </p>
<p>that shows that college admission office expenditures far, far exceed revenue from application fees. Colleges solicit and accept applications to find students, nothing more.</p>