Debt: The Silent Killer

lskinner · February 10, 2010, 9:29am

It’s not a matter of not enjoying it so much as hating it. And with my position properly characterized, you are correct – graduate education necessarily entails this kind of risk. Which is why any would-be graduate student needs to consider carefully the investment of time, money, and emotion involved in the graduate program at issue.

Kindly refrain from personal attacks.

Not just big law firm jobs although that is a large part of it. Many people decide that they hate practicing law period.

So you are abandoning your claim about non-legal jobs for Yale Law grads?

I don’t think academia is a viable or realistic fallback position, even for a Yale Law grad. Academic jobs tend to be extremely competitive. Even if you land one, more often than not it will require moving somewhere far away. Which is ok for a lot of people but if you are married with children in some suburb it’s extremely unappealing to uproot your entire family.

I do think that a Yale Law graduate can be pretty confident of landing a public interest job even in a rough economy. But as I noted above, this can pose a big financial problem even with a gold-plated loan repayment program. Besides, public interest work (and boutique firm work) both involve practicing law. Probably public interest work is easier to swallow but boutique work is not all that different from BIGLAW work.

flowerhead · February 10, 2010, 9:47am

Nope. I just don’t know enough to make a definitive claim either way. My evidence is only as anecdotal as yours, but unlike you, I won’t stretch it to make certain conclusions.

I never said it was a fallback option. I simply said it was an option, and one that seems relatively easier for a Yale grad to get into than any other law school grad.

You’re joking, right? I mean, I might be headed to a big firm myself, but I can tell you without question that I’d much rather work at a boutique. Typically, people hate biglaw because of the type of work they do and the length of time for which they must do it: Doc review. The single biggest complaint from biglaw associates, that I hear, is that they simply cannot take the responsibility they want to take early on. A fifth year associate at a peer firm will not have taken a deposition by that time (though, admittedly, I don’t think a fifth year at my firm will have taken a deposition either, even though I’ve been told otherwise). This situation is most definitely not the case at boutiques, where leverage is close to 1:1, cases are staffed leanly, and every associate takes major responsibilities within each case. Surprise, surprise, boutiques tend to have a higher QoL, higher partnership prospects, and better experience. You might be working as much at Susman as you would be at Skadden Arps, but you’ll definitely be doing better work as a junior attorney at Susman.

lskinner · February 10, 2010, 10:10am

Please show me where I made “certain conclusions” (about Yale and non-legal careers). Please QUOTE me.

You seemed to be arguing that if a Yale Law School grad decides he or she hates practicing law, going into academia is a possible solution to the problem. Did I misunderstand you?

No I am not.

Will you be billing your time by the hour or by some other way? Will you be running your own cases or working under a partner’s supervision? Will you be drafting legal briefs and memoranda? Will you be doing legal research and writing? Will you be trying cases?

flowerhead · February 10, 2010, 10:33am

…

Either your mentioning the anecdote was absolutely useless, or there was an implied conclusion (indicated by your skepticism) that non-law jobs are a no-go. Either you must concede this was a wasted post, or that you were drawing a conclusion you couldn’t draw.

That wasn’t the claim. I argued that the notion of “hating practicing law” mostly stems from disgruntled biglaw attorneys, and I agreed with you by stating that there’s an uncomfortably high probability that one will, indeed, hate one’s big law job.

The corollary was that a YLS grad might find happiness in other legal fields than big law, fields that traditionally boast a higher quality of life and don’t have a reputation for leading attorneys to hate their jobs.

Your larger argument, that someone might find that they hate the law overall, really lacks any explanatory power. As I said earlier, this risk is present in any field. However, I would argue that most people who attend a top law school want to be involved in the law in some way, and don’t regret being involved in the law. The only regrets I’ve seen are from being involved in the law in a “biglaw capacity.” That’s a fate not so easily avoided by most top law school graduates, but one that can be easily avoided by a YLS grad.

Relative to similarly “junior” associates at a big, full-service law firm, you will be doing these things earlier than they will (and by a significant margin).

lskinner · February 10, 2010, 11:06am

So any time a person posts an anecdote as a basis being skeptical of somebody’s position, the inference is that the person is drawing a “certain conclusion”?

You yourself stated that you were relying on anecdotal evidence. So by your own reasoning, either your posts are meaningless or you are drawing “certain conclusions.” Right?

And if that’s true, then you were wrong when you denied stretching your evidence to make “certain conclusions.”

Again you are mischaracterizing my position. My point about hating the practice of law is not limited to BIGLAW.

I have no idea what your point is. I pointed out that a prospective YLS student is taking a risk that he or she will hate practicing law. You pointed out (among other things) academia as a possible alternative. To me, it seems you were arguing for academia being a possible fallback position.

If not, then I have no idea what your point is in raising academia. In any event, whatever you are saying does not appear to contradict my point.

Again, I don’t understand what your point is. So what if the risk is present in any field?

My general impression is that many people who attend law school do have such regrets. Lol, but I guess any time somebody uses anecdotal evidence against you, they are “stretching” that evidence to make a “certain conclusion.” (Of course you are perfectly free to share anecdotes yourself – a different standard applies to you.)

As far as I know, litigation associates at boutique firms bill their time by the hour just like litigation associates at BIGLAW.

As far as I know, litigation associates at boutique firms spend a lot of time doing research and writing just like litigation associates at BIGLAW.

etc. etc.

It may very well be true that litigation associates at boutique firms get more responsibility earlier. But my point isn’t that the two are exactly the same.

flowerhead · February 10, 2010, 11:24am

Sure. But I have no trouble admitting my anecdote was meaningless.

Alright, then your point lacks any explanatory power whatsoever.

Your point: People should be wary of going to law school, even YLS, because they might hate the law.

I’m sorry, hun, but there’s nothing startling or groundbreaking in that claim. Typically, the person who doesn’t understand that truism is the same person who can’t get into YLS.

See above.

Hmmm. Any regrets I’ve seen are related to biglaw practice. But I’m sure your many anecdotes about lawyers hating their PI, teaching, judging, and boutique practices disproved my argument.

That’s your problem. That’s all you know.

Exactly, you don’t seem to know a lot. Litigation associates, at least early on and through mid-level, are almost assuredly glorified doc-reviewers. You can say I’m wrong, but I’ve been on many callback interviews throughout the V10 where associates blatantly confessed that they did doc review, and that motion writing and deposition taking, etc. didn’t come until much later. That’s if you make it that far.

Then what is your point? That both are sufficiently similar such that if one hates biglaw one will hate boutique firms? That’s a tough argument to make, since:
a) You don’t seem to know what a boutique firm is, and the type of work boutique associates do.
b) It’s a pretty well-known fact (see: not anecdotal), that boutiques have the highest QoL.

lskinner · February 10, 2010, 11:53am

:shrug: From now on whenever you post an anecdote or anecdotal evidence, if you do not add the disclaimer that you consider it to be a meaningless and a wasted post, I will infer you are making “certain conclusions.”

I have no idea what this means. I’m not trying to explain some observed phenomenon.

This is basically correct, except I would add that the concern is far more important now that law school has become extremely expensive.

So what if there isn’t?

See above.

What can I say? My experience is different from yours.

Are you denying that boutique law firm associates bill their time by the hour?

:shrug: I worked as a BIGLAW litigation associate for 4 or 5 years and knew many other people who also worked as BIGLAW litigation associates. I’ve also met many attorneys who worked in many different kinds of firms.

Not exactly, but close. If you hate being a BIGLAW litigation associate, there is a decent chance you will hate being a boutique litigation associate.

Of course, it depends on exactly why you hated BIGLAW in the first place. If you love being a lawyer but hate the lack of responsibility at BIGLAW, you might be somewhat happier at a boutique. Even that is not for sure. For example (*** anecdote coming ***), I am not happy as a litigation attorney unless I am running my own files at least 95% of the time.

On the other hand, some people just hate working long hours; billing their time; doing legal research or writing; etc., or some subset thereof.

Since you know so much, let me ask you this:

Generally speaking, do litigation associates at boutique firms spend most of their time running their own files?

flowerhead · February 10, 2010, 12:04pm

Never said you don’t seem to know a lot about biglaw; said you don’t seem to know a lot about boutique firms.

Certainly a fair point.

From what I know, the biggest complaint isn’t necessarily about the hours done (hey, it comes with the territory, right), but rather what associates bill those hours for. I have to admit I’d hate my life if I billed 2400 doc review hours per year. Maybe I should spice it up with pro bono?

No idea.

What I do think, though, is that attorney happiness seems to correspond with the ability to take on more responsibility. Boutiques, at the outset, permit taking a huge amount of responsibility early on.

It’s no surprise, however, that boutiques are also super selective.

lskinner · February 10, 2010, 12:23pm

I’ve interviewed with and met attorneys who worked at both. I have no problem believing that boutique firm attorneys get more responsibility earler. But my impression and common sense say the same thing: Both kinds of associates have to bill their time; both spend a lot of time doing research and writing; both work under the supervision of partners who run the file; and so on.

As far as document review goes, I never spent more than 10% of my time doing doc review and I never met any (litigation) associates who spent more than 20% of their time doing doc review. Maybe things are different now since the economy is slow and BIGLAW litigation associates do mainly doc review. I kinda doubt it, but anyway my point still stands since completely possible to hate document review AND hate incessant legal research and writing.

This is true for some attorneys not all. And even for those who will be happier with more responsibility, the sort of responsibilty you ascribe to boutique firms might not satisfy.

flowerhead · February 10, 2010, 12:24pm

Fair enough. Maybe I’m being overly pessimistic.

flowerhead · February 10, 2010, 1:55pm

PS. Sorry if I sounded rude. Getting grouchy about starting hearsay in class.

sakky · February 10, 2010, 2:29pm

Unfortunately, by doing so, you still have to repay most, if not all, of your debt. What I am proposing is a method to legitimately avoid debt without ever having to damage your credit rating.

Placing the issue of health insurance aside, I would submit that anybody anybody with a mortgage and children has assumed significant financial responsibilities regardless of their career. The key obviously is not to assume those responsibilities until such time as you are truly financially secure or at least until your educational debt is substantially whittled down - a truism in life regardless of what industry you work in. Those PhD students I mentioned have no such encumberances and can do as they please.

Regarding health insurance, all of the PhD students I mentioned are all insured. As a relatively young law school graduate who (hopefully) doesn’t smoke, doesn’t have children, and has no pre-existing conditions, health insurance is relatively cheap even in the individual market and can also probably garnered as part of a benefits package even at a low-end, low-paying law position. I agree that those with pre-existing conditions face a tougher road, but that would be the case regardless of whether they were lawyers or not.

I find that hard to believe as Harvard and Yale are not substantially costlier than most other top private law schools. Yearly tuition for Harvard Law is ~44k, but tuition for, say, Cornell Law is actually higher at ~49k. {Granted, the Boston area is more expensive than Ithaca, but, let’s face it, Boston is also a far more interesting place to live.} The tuition is also not substantially higher than that of even mediocre, no-name law schools. tuition at Southwestern University Law is ~$37k, hence only about $7k a year less; a HLS graduate would therefore graduate with only ~$21k more debt than would a Southwestern graduate.

[Tuition</a> and Expenses](<a href=“http://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/admissions/tuition/tuition_expenses.cfm]Tuition”>J.D. Tuition and Financial Aid | Cornell Law School)

[Southwestern</a> Law School — Tuition](<a href=“http://www.swlaw.edu/studentservices/finaid/tuition]Southwestern”>Tuition and Fees | Southwestern Law School)

Nor do top public law schools offer much relief. The most egregious case is UMichigan Law which charges a whopping $43k for an entire year (both semesters) * to state residents<img src=“and%20$46k%20for%20nonresidents” alt=“/i”>. Berkeley may be slightly better, charging $36k to state residents (and $48k to nonresidents), but the savings are still rather minimal. You will be incurring substantial debt in all cases.

[Law</a> School Tuition Rates](<a href=“Tuition and Aid | University of Michigan Law School”>Tuition and Aid | University of Michigan Law School)

[Berkeley</a> Law - FAQs](<a href=“FAQs - Berkeley Law”>FAQs - Berkeley Law)

The salient question is therefore not whether Harvard or Yale are overpriced but rather whether those other law schools are overpriced. If anything, Harvard and Yale are underpriced relative to most other law schools, particularly given the remarkably generous LRAP’s that most other law schools lack.

Ha! You say that as if that would be a bad thing. To quote Shakespeare in Henry VI regarding the establishment of a utopia: “The first thing we do is kill all the lawyers.”

Or go to a law school which will provide you with a full ride, a notion for which I agree with a previous poster.

Or go to night/part-time law school while maintaining a regular job - perhaps even a job that will (partially) subsidize your studies.

No you’re not, which is where the LRAP comes into play. I believe we’ve established that it’s not that hard for a Harvard Law grad to find some low-stress law position apart from biglaw that pays only $40k a year. Yale law grads are in even better shape, not even having to take jobs involved with the law at all, and can make up to $60k a year while invoking the full LRAP umbrella. Surely a Yale Law grad can find some job out there that will pay him $60k a year. {In the absolute worst case scenario, he could simply learn some IT skills such as Cisco networking, Oracle databases, or SAS programming and pass the appropriate certification exams - which shouldn’t be that hard for anybody good enough to be admitted to Yale Law - then obtain an IT job paying $40-60k a year.}

sakky · February 10, 2010, 2:51pm

I make no such concession. Again, as we discussed, it doesn’t seem that hard for a Harvard Law grad to find a laid-back law job that pays only $40k a year.

I don’t even necessarily claim that such a job would be high-paying. After all, even putting aside my suggestion that a Yale Law grad could pursue career in basic IT, what’s the absolute worst case scenario in a dismal economy? He ends up working at McDonalds? So what? It’s still a job. Any job allows him to be eligible for the Yale LRAP.

More realistically, a Yale Law grad could simply obtain whatever job he would have obtained with just his undergrad degree. The average undergrad in the country makes ~$35k to start. Surely a Yale Law grad could find a job making that. {And like I said, a better solution would be for him to learn Cisco skills and pick up a CCIE certification, which shouldn’t be that hard for a Yale Law grad.}

And the way to combat that is to simply not list that degree on your resume in the first place. There is no requirement that you list each and every qualification you have on your resume. I know somebody with a PhD who chooses not to mention it on certain versions of his resume.

True, you may then have to explain certain gaps in your resume timeline regarding those mysterious years in which you were actually in school and possibly in your post-graduation years as a lawyer. One possible way to avoid problems is to simply omit all dates on your resume altogether - the employer may then simply assume that you’re a recent college graduate (for which you expend no effort to correct him). Another possibility is to state that you were in grad school, but don’t actually mention that you graduated. Still another is to say that you were dealing with family responsibilities during those years which have now been resolved, but choose not to elaborate on the matter. Nor would that be a lie - as everybody has some family responsibilities.

sakky · February 10, 2010, 3:11pm

They’re highly competitive at the top law schools, and only for tenure-track positions. I doubt that it would be particularly difficult for a Yale Law grad to find an adjunct lecturer position at a low-tier, no-name law school, or even an unaccredited law school.

You keep invoking that trope, yet that is not a problem specific to lawyers, and certainly not to Harvard or Yale-trained lawyers. Anybody who is married with children is going to find it difficult to move, regardless of their profession. There are plenty of regular Americans who are married with children who have been laid off from their regular jobs and are facing the unappetizing prospect of moving. The difference is that those regular people never once had a chance of ever holding a job paying the $150k+ salaries typical of biglaw associates even if a substantial fraction of that would directed to retire law school debt.

The point simply being that I fail to see the risk involved in attending YLS (and to a lesser extent HLS). In the absolute worst case scenario, you can simply take the sort of regular job characteristic of regular Americans while invoking the LRAP to shield you from debt. If stocking shelves at Walmart or waiting tables is the best job you can find, well, you do what you gotta do. According to the Yale LRAP, as long as you make less than $60k a year, you’re effectively debt-free.

HLS does require that you work in the law. But again, as we have established, it’s not that hard to find a laid-back law position that pays only $40k a year. Many law firms probably would hire a HLS grad, especially one with biglaw experience, for only $40k a year, even with the understanding that you won’t be in the office particularly often. And, again, I don’t think it would be particularly hard to find some low-end adjunct lecturer position at a no-name law school.

Granted, I suppose you could find that you don’t enjoy working in law. But to that, I would say, firstly, suck it up. Let’s be perfectly honest - most regular Americans don’t really enjoy their jobs. How many people working at the mall, waiting tables, or flipping burgers truly enjoy their jobs? Secondly, how badly can you dislike your job if you don’t have to work particularly hard, or even show up particularly often? Again, for only $40k a year, you as a HLS grad can probably negotiate a deal where you’re effectively available perhaps half or 2/3 of the time. It’s hard to truly hate a job that doesn’t even require that you be around that often.

sakky · February 10, 2010, 4:00pm

I have to strongly disagree, for reasons I discussed previously. Regular people seem to be magnetically drawn to the Harvard and Yale brand.

But allow me to proffer a clear example where your Yale Law pedigree would be absolutely vital. Start a consulting small business whose service is to advise people on how to maximize their chances of being admitted to Yale Law (or other top law schools), leveraging the credibility of being a Yale Law graduate yourself.

This phenomenon is pervasive in the IT industry: many people who pass the top-line certification exams of a particular technology then start consulting/education businesses whose goal is to help others pass those same exams, or to work for such companies as (well-paid) trainers. Heck, some people pass those cert exams with no intention of actually working in the field, but to simply take lucrative positions training others how to pass those exams (who might themselves be looking to train others to pass those exams, thereby building an infinitely recursive loop). It’s quite the lucrative racket.

flowerhead · February 10, 2010, 4:05pm

I don’t go to YLS, but I have started my own admissions consulting biz. I’m making quite a bit, and the prestigious UG+law school help boost my credibility:D

lskinner · February 10, 2010, 5:30pm

I kinda doubt it. If you have $250k in debt and you are earning $20,000.00 per year as a part-time Starbuck’s barrista, the $2k a year they garnish from your wages won’t even cover the interest you owe.

Again, if you are living the starving student lifestyle, what does your credit rating matter? You won’t be buying a house or a car. You won’t be applying to rent an apartment. You’ll just be couch-surfing/crashing with your boyfriend/girlfriend.

Again, it’s a matter of taste. I think it’s better to marry and have children young. You are less likely to have fertility problems and less likely to have a heart attack while you are playing ball with your kids. Obviously this is a bigger problem for women who can easily spend all of their fertile years getting educated; paying down debts; and reaching financial security.

Surely it is possible that ALL law schools charging $45k a year in tuition are overpriced.

Sure I agree with that, but like I said, this path probably won’t work so well if you want to live an upper middle class suburban lifestyle with a spouse and children while you still have all your hair.

I agree . . . but those jobs tend to pay really poorly.

Well . . . it’s a problem for anyone who has to make a big investment in time and money to get into a particular career. And the problem of having to move is especially bad among academics (or wannabe academics) in any field of study.

lskinner · February 10, 2010, 5:34pm

FWIW I am a solo practitioner and out of hundreds of clients, perhaps one or two have asked where I went to law school. Perhaps it’s different with higher end work, but most people seem to just go by advertising and/or personal recommendations.

I concede that for some businesses, a Yale degree would be very helpful.

bluedevilmike · February 10, 2010, 5:43pm

This sounds tempting. Where does one sign up?

flowerhead · February 10, 2010, 6:18pm

If you’re serious about joining up, I’m in the process of recruiting an LSAT tutor (she scored a 180), and I actually might enlarge the organization. I’m still thinking it through. The thing about being on my own is that I can be on my own schedule. By establishing something official (what I do now is essentially word-of-mouth, helping friends out for money), I’d be committing myself to something I’m not sure I could commit to.

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