<p>My D’s grades, while respectable, are not going to be enough to overcome her SATs. I will there were some highly intellectual, life of the mind kind of schools that are less selective.</p>
<p>Calmom, I think you hit the nail on the head, and in retrospect I’d have to say that my son ended up doing more or less the same thing. His slow reading speed made AP English or history out of the question, so he focused his attention on taking challenging math and science classes and pursuing his other interests.</p>
<p>He never took the SAT, but his PSAT math score was surprisingly low, considering that he was taking AP Calc that year and getting A’s. We postulated 3 reasons:
There’s a lot of reading in the SAT math section, which slowed him down.
The math is very elementary and there were a lot of questions in areas where he was rusty (mostly geometry).
Because the math is so simple, the hard questions tend to be “trick” and/or use non-standard and confusing notation, such as the question that labeled the same line with two different variables. </p>
<p>The ACT math section requires more advanced math (through trig I believe), but it’s a much more straightforward math test.</p>
<p>Queen’s Mom we’re looking for the same thing, but for the opposite reason. It gives me nightmares the way my younger son does multiple choice tests - he can’t remember anything, but logics out the right answer despite his deficits. The best school that I know of that’s relatively unselective, but intellectual is St. Johns (Annapolis or Santa Fe), but you have to subscribe to the Great Books Curriculum which would be anathema to my kid.</p>
<p>MarinMom it’s very easy to make silly mistakes on the SAT1 math - and every single one will ding you about 20 points. You have to really look out for the negatives “Which one of these is NOT true” and the multistep, super easy problems, like counting tiles for a bathroom floor. mathson made dumb mistakes every time.</p>
<p>mathmom, D looked at St. Johns, but the volume of reading is scaring her off. I do not think that’s the best place for her either.</p>
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Why do they try to trick students like that? My son did not do nearly as well on the SAT as his hs and college grades would predict (straight A’s all around, including engineering school) vs approx 700ish on SAT sections). Likewise, my hs daughter is in the same situation: good grades in honors and AP classes but SAT sections in the 600 range. Clearly, the standardized tests do not predict success. So why do schools cling to this method?</p>
<p>Is this a thread for me? My kid’s vitals:</p>
<p>3.6/4.0 UW/W GPA
1720 SAT
29 ACT</p>
<p>I can’t figure out where he belongs. He seems to be caught between the “B+” thread and the CC over-achievers.</p>
<p>lkf, I’ve read in other threads that the “trick” questions on the SAT are due to the process by which questions are selected. As I understand it, questions are ranked based on how the students who missed them on the experimental section performed otherwise on the test. Hard questions are ones that were missed by students who otherwise did well, therefore are often tricky in some way. I always did well on those kinds of questions because I enjoyed finding the trick, but my son is a very straightforward, rather visual thinker and found the SAT very frustrating. Tell your daughter to try the ACT. She doesn’t need to prep for it, as she can choose which scores to send. If she likes it but wants to improve she can prep and retake.</p>
<p>Queen’s Mom, has your d given any thought to the women’s colleges? I know a girl who had excellent grades but very poor SAT scores, and she ended up at Scripps.</p>
<p>It is unfortunately an issue when you are looking at colleges and if you are looking for merit money. With my kids and their peers, it has pretty much been the case that those taking tough courses, with a B+ average and high test scores do better in admissions than those with an A average and mediocre test scores. I looked at the results for my kids’ years and where those kids were accepted and it was pretty consistent. There were a few outliers, but overall that was the situation. I am mulling over this fact since I have one coming up who falls into the high grade/low test score category. I know that one of the schools he likes would give a nice merit award if his grades were lower and his test score higher since his brother fell into that category. Kids with my sons’ stats were turned down as often as accepted and when accepted did not get a dime of merit money.</p>
<p>Yes, MarinMom. So far, D’s 2 favorites are Barnard (super reach) and Agnes Scott (match/safety). I want to take her to see Bryn Mawr this summer as well. D’s grades are not “excellent” however. She is an UW 3.3 and a weighted 3.8 with a definite upward trend. With her personality she will definitely do well at a women’s college.</p>
<p>Odd, isn’t it? How some schools give so much more weight to standardized test scores when it comes to doling out merit aid than they do in considering whether or not to admit. It seems a little bizarre to me that four hours at a desk filling in little bubbles counts more than four years of hard work and very good to excellent academic achievement in the classroom? I say this as the parent of a kid who scored high enough on the SATs to garner some very impressive merit awards. I believe she earned those awards, but more for what she did during her four years in high school than for how she scored on a standardized test. Yet the schools who offered merit money all cited the SATs and SAT IIs as a major rationale.</p>
<p>BTW lkf725, the College Board doesn’t claim that high SAT scores are predictive of grades, just that they are one tool that can be used to predict liklihood of success in college (the definition of success is left wide open). Conversely, I know from personal experience that a good college GPA isn’t predictive of someone having scored in the 700s on the SATs.</p>
<p>It is not bizarre to me that ACT and SAT scores are used for merit aid. Not all school gpas are equal. Why should the kiddo from a top 10 public hs with a 3.25, who took AP and honor classes miss out on merit aid, when another student took perhaps 2 honor classes, no AP classes, and comes from weak hs that only sends 30% of students to college, but has a gpa of 3.8 gets merit aid? Phew, sorry for the run on sentance, but I had to get that out of my system! The standardized test might help boost the 3.25 enough to get some merit aid too, if this kiddo scores a 1200+… again… those standardized tests can serve to help equalize the situation.</p>
<p>It isn’t bizarre to me either…that they “use scores” that is. What does seem odd are those schools that put more weight on the scores than they do other factors.</p>
<p>What other factors? </p>
<p>Some schools look at the whole package. I prefer that. My younger son is not a great test taker, yet he comes from a hs that does not give out As like candy. His gpa is not bad, but it isn’t a 3.9 either. He has tons of ECs and some talent. I think that he will do better with merit money at a school that will consider his entire application, rather than just the numbers. Funny, I just spoke with an admissions counselor for a LAC that uses the chart. They are starved for solid male students, and geographic diversity. My son offers them both. He also offers them more than that. He would be in the top 25% of their admission pool and offers things that don’t show up in just numbers. I simply asked if merit aid was by the numbers (a chart) or if other factors, would count (besides performing arts applicants). The counselor paused. He would have loved to say, yes we look at such and such… They wanted me to want my son to apply and ultimately attend. He could not say what I wanted to hear. I am glad this gave him a moment to think about what could be done differently to get a kid like my son to marticulate!! Oh, my son would qualify for money there, but it is a matter of how money.</p>
<p>When I visited Providence and Villanova, both said they have a list of things they want…geograpy, diversity, music, males, etc. That of course gives someone an edge when they apply, if they fill that void. They would take a lower SAT, but solid student to fill a “gap”, then a high SAT that didn’t. Sometimes when they have a band member graduating that played an instrument that wasn’t very popular, that student, if interested in playing, gets an edge. A minority from CA that is male is flag…they all want something, you just don’t know what.
Right now, I’m at that horrible line, where my SAT/ACT isn’t high enough for big merit, (but some) but my GPA/classes are challenging. I have to wait and see after taking the SAT/ACT again in October whether I send them to all colleges.
I can take a class at Yale next year free with my school, I’m hoping that if I do well, it will offset that my high school doesn’t have a lot of college-bound seniors or at least to selective colleges. We always have about 30 that go to Ivies or top 25, but many others because of money and other issues, go to state,community or not at all.</p>
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<p>Absolutely! Very smart to look for schools like that if they are what you want. This is what gave the counselor pause at the schoool that I contacted. He could not say, yes, we look at the whole package. He could only tell me that they go by the numbers. If merit aid by the numbers is not enough, the counselor knows that my son has other options out there, and you just named a couple of examples. Perhaps that is part of the reason for their M/F imbalance!</p>
<p>northeastmom – The other factors I was referring to were rigor of curriculum, GPA and rank. Also quantifiable, at least to a degree. I am also speaking about some specific schools where SAT scores are make or break – no not make or break – where SAT scores are the #1 factor in awarding merit aid. Maybe I’m not being clear. Maybe I am. I really don’t want to cite specific examples of deserving kids denied decent aid by specific schools as I feel I’d be breaking confidences. If I can think of a way to be clearer without being too revealing I’ll get back to you.</p>
<p>Hudson, I have come to the conclusion that there isn’t a way to be fair. Some schools do not rank, and with regard to curriculum and gpa, the sudent going to the more rigorous school might end up losing out while the student at a less challenging high school will end up the merit offer. This is why standardized testing has some value in the admissions system, IMO.</p>
<p>“This is why standardized testing has some value in the admissions system, IMO.”</p>
<p>I would agree. I think we are arguing over matters of degree. While I am no fan of the SAT (the ACT is marginally better IMO), I am not convinced that going test-optional gains much in terms of establishing “fair” criteria in admissions.</p>
<p>Hudson, we are in agreement.</p>