Decisions, decisions, decisions - Penn, G'town, UVa..

College Search & Selection
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<p>I'm an avid lurker but finally had a valid reason to sign up. Which one of these schools is (do YOU think is) better for undergraduate studies in economics and/or sociology? I want to consider them without factoring in the financial bit at this point, so please just help me compare these on equal grounds. That being said, I like nice campuses, intellectual atmospheres and diversity! Prestige is also important - both inside and outside the US.</p>

<p>Penn (CAS), Georgetown (college), Northwestern, North Carolina at Chapel Hill, University of Virginia and U Wisconsin-Madison, plus these HK schools: University of Hong Kong, Chinese University of Hong Kong and finally the Hong Kong University of Science and Technology. Also Tsinghua of mainland China, if anyone knows about it - it's one of the best schools in China!</p>

<p>Penn might seem stronger than the rest but I hear so many things that I don't know what to believe. Georgetown seems to be great yet it's ranked quite low for some obscure reason. I get conflicting messages and need any advice I can get.</p>

<p>Thank you!
Pam</p>

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<p>With one exception, you have a list of universities in the US that are extremely selective in admissions. Apply to them all and see which ones offer you admission. Odds are, some of those universities will limit your choices through their admissions decisions. UVa and UNC-CH for example are harder for admissions than the average stats may appear because they strictly limit the no. of students who are not in-state. </p>

<p>I would imagine all of those US universities would have great economics programs. Sociology is a field that seems to be out of favor in the US, except for people studying social work.</p>

<p>Just make sure you add some safeties.</p>

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<p>If your emphasis is mathematical economics or you want to go on to PhD study in economics, look in the schools’ course catalogs for:</p>

<ul>
<li>Strong upper division math and statistics offerings (real analysis, linear algebra, probability and statistics at an intermediate/advanced level, etc.).</li>
<li>Intermediate microeconomics and econometrics courses that are math intensive, with math prerequisites more advanced than frosh calculus (e.g. multivariable calculus, linear algebra, and/or differential equations).</li>
<li>Mathematics economics elective courses.</li>
</ul>

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<p>You can get a good undergraduate education in economics and sociology at any of the U.S. schools mentioned, but of these schools, Penn, Northwestern, and Wisconsin have the strongest faculties in both fields. The private universities (Penn, Northwestern, and Georgetown) would tend to have lower student/faculty ratios and fewer large classes, if that matters to you. But I agree with charlieschm: except for Wisconsin, these schools are extremely selective, so there’s little point to choosing among them until you’ve been admitted and know what your real choices are. And even Wisconsin is not necessarily an easy admit for an international applicant.</p>

<p>I don’t know anything about the Hong Kong schools. I have been to Tsinghua–once, briefly, for an academic conference. It’s an impressive university with a lovely campus and a top-notch academic reputation, but I have no basis for comparing it to the U.S. universities on your list.</p>

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<p>Why would you consider them without the financial aspect? I don’t see the point of that - why compare colleges without a crucial piece of information, unless cost is no object to you and your family?</p>

<p>Just so you know, Penn, UNC-Chapel Hill, Northwestern, and Georgetown are need-aware for international students. That means they consider financial need when deciding whether to admit international students (I don’t know if you are international, but considering the Chinese/HK universities made me throw this out there). Georgetown is alternatively listed as need-sensitive or “need-blind, but does not meet full need for international applicants.”</p>

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<p>According to what ranking?
Georgetown’s undergraduate programs are ranked #20 by US News. That’s quite high, no? However, it does not have nearly as many highly ranked graduate programs as Penn, Wisconsin, or Northwestern. The graduate programs are what get ranked in specific department assessments.</p>

<p>USNWR ranks graduate programs in sociology. Wisconsin, UNC, Northwestern, and Penn make the top 10 (with Wisconsin in a tie for #1). UVa is #35. I don’t see Georgetown in the top 100.
USNWR also ranks graduate programs in economics. Northwestern, and Penn make the top 10 (with Wisconsin in a tie for #1). Wisconsin is #13. UVa is #30, UNC #32, Georgetown #46. </p>

<p>The US News graduate program rankings are based entirely on subjective peer assessment surveys sent to academics in these fields. Presumably, they are influenced by the quantity and quality of research coming out of these schools (as reflected in journal publications) or by the presence of well-known/influential scholars associated with each department. Whether these factors have a great bearing on the quality of undergraduate education is a matter of opinion. All other things being equal, having distinguished faculty members and productive researchers would seem to be a good thing. However, the most distinguished professors don’t necessarily even teach undergraduates (although their presence on the faculty may attract good professors and grad students who do). </p>

<p>Washington Monthly tracks research expenditures at national universities and LACs. Among national universities, Wisconsin ranks 4th, Penn 10th, UNC 16th, Northwestern 27th, UVa 66th, and Georgetown 95th (without adjusting these expenditures for institution size.)</p>

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<p>charlieschm, thank you for your advice. Any comments on which schools would be stronger in economics and/or sociology? What about atmosphere and prestige?</p>

<p>ucbalumnus, thank you very much! Useful advice!</p>

<p>bclintonk, thanks for your input. The reputation is important and I would prefer a school which has some degree of international reputation. Any ideas?</p>

<p>juillet, thank you. I agree with what you are saying, however I initially just want to compare the schools without looking at the financial part. I want to look at that at a later stage. I want to do this because it is really important for me to factor in the financial bit based on my own and my family’s value judgments as opposed mixing them up with someone else’s. Some people say college is a waste of money altogether right? If school X is a great fit for me, only I can tell how big a difference in costs makes it more attractive than less expensive school Y. I hope you see what I mean.</p>

<p>tk21769, in the QS rankings Georgetown does not fare very well, for example. I know it’s a great school, just like Dartmouth which doesn’t fare very well in QS rankings either, but I also read and hear things about its limited financial resources and the like. Some say it’s a perfect alternative to Ivies, other say its not in the same league (not literally), so I’d love some more opinions about that. How impressive is having Georgetown College on your resume versus Penn CAS if all other factors are equal? For me it is very important that the school is appreciated and fairly known widely, on both coasts and preferably abroad as well. I mean, some schools have a great domestic reputation but are not very well known internationally. Penn, being an Ivy, has an obvious advantage here on the international stage, as far as I know. I’d love to hear what you guys think though!</p>

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<p>Hey PamZhang, I went to Georgetown CAS and currently a PhD student. I am also international. There is a lot of info I could give you but too busy right now. Julliet is correct though about need-blind. Gtown is weird they admit you and could end up giving you 0 aid. While other schools reject you if they cant meet your need. Cornell is just like Georgetown. I got into Cornell but got waitlisted for financial aid so there are some schools out there that do this</p>

<p>I did not do economics /sociology (I started off as an econ major though) but I had a roommate that double majored in both. Currently a PhD student at a top 5 School in sociology and doing really well. (I know 3 people in his department who ended up in top 5 PhD programs in sociology)</p>

<p>Point being you have a shot at a top 5-10 PhD in a lot of programs if you do well at Gtown. Gtown is strong for getting students in law school possibly top 6-8 in America. Gtown is also one of the most represented schools in the financial services industry and a lot of the students at top business schools are from georgetown</p>

<p><a href=“http://poetsandquants.com/2011/09/07/top-feeder-schools-to-columbia-business-school/2/[/url]”>http://poetsandquants.com/2011/09/07/top-feeder-schools-to-columbia-business-school/2/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p><a href=“http://poetsandquants.com/2011/08/15/top-feeder-colleges-to-harvard-business-school/2/[/url]”>http://poetsandquants.com/2011/08/15/top-feeder-colleges-to-harvard-business-school/2/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>You are correct about Georgetown. Its reputation is really mixed. I would say Penn CAS is a better than Gtown not based on academics but on reputation which translates to better job opportunities. But the gap is not significant and it would depend on how well you do.</p>

<p>Goergetown’s problem is that it has weak departments at the graduate level. Also the atmosphere is not what I would call intellectual, though the students especially in the SFS are really smart. Most are really pre-prof so you will not find a large number of your peers eager to take graduate classes. I dont know anything about Penn so I will not speak for it.</p>

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<p>Tsinghua is considered top tier by most academics. The issue is what do you want to do after. If you want to go on wall street well you might just take an American university.</p>

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<p>If you’re interested in Tsinghua, why not MIT?</p>

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<p>sefago, thanks for a very insightful post! As you say, Georgetown seems to be well represented at graduate schools and the financial sector. You mentioned that you are an international student, how much weight does a Georgetown CAS degree have in your home country? Also, if you don’t want to share what country you are from, what continent does your country belong to?</p>

<p>Do you have any idea why Georgetown’s reputation varies so much? It confuses me. The admittance rate is low and it has a great location, is it due to the relatively small endowment perhaps?</p>

<p>SlackerMomMD, MIT doesn’t offer a sociology major from what I know. Tsinghua does! Does anyone have any idea of Tsinghua’s reputation outside China? I thought it was pretty much confined to mainland China, but I really don’t know.</p>

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<p>It is not unusual for university reputations (or rankings) to vary widely, depending on how the reputation (or ranking) is measured.</p>

<p>The following site aggregates rankings of 50 colleges from 6 different sources:
[50</a> Top Colleges](<a href=“http://www.50topcolleges.com/]50”>http://www.50topcolleges.com/)
There is much variation in the rankings assigned by these 6 sources.
Examples:
Brown ranges from #7 to #63
Penn ranges from #5 to #112
NYU ranges from #33 to #152
Berkeley ranges from #2 to #140</p>

<p>Universities are complex institutions that do many different things, not all of them equally well. Each college ranking measures a different set of features. Therefore, different rankings show different results.</p>

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<p>I’ve heard of a few top Chinese universities, but I’ve traveled to China several times:
Beijing University
Tsinghua
Fudan
Tongji
Nankai (?)</p>

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<p>It’s true that compared to other universities in the US News top 25, Georgetown does not have a very large financial endowment. In 2012, its endowment was about $1.1B. This is not only much smaller than the Ivy endowments (e.g. Dartmouth at $3.5B), it is lower even than some small liberal arts colleges ([List</a> of colleges and universities in the United States by endowment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_colleges_and_universities_in_the_United_States_by_endowment]List”>List of colleges and universities in the United States by endowment - Wikipedia))</p>

<p>Having more limited financial resources makes it harder for Georgetown to invest in top faculty, facilities, and research projects to compete in many fields. In Washington Monthly’s ranking of faculty receiving significant awards, Georgetown ranks 146th. By faculty in national academies, it ranks 77th. Its library system is not outstanding (in facilities and holdings) compared to many other T25 universities. It holds about 3.5M volumes, which places it among the top 100 US library systems but is a little small compared to Harvard’s 17M, Chicago’s 10M, or Duke’s 6.2M.</p>

<p>Georgetown does leverage its DC location well to excel in one field especially (international relations). It hires prominent practitioners in that field (such as former Secretaries of State and diplomats) to teach for a few years after they have retired from public service, or to teach part-time while employed in the DC area. This would be less expensive than building a cadre of highly paid tenured scholars (and supporting research facilities) in many academic fields. Celebrity faculty attract top students to its School of Foreign Service, some of whom go on to positions of prominence in highly visible fields. This tends to elevate the reputation of the whole university (or at least the undergraduate elements). However, that standing doesn’t hold up equally well in every ranking. It does in the US News ranking, whose factors include student selectivity and peer assessments. It does not hold up as well in some of the international rankings that measure faculty publication and citation volumes. You would have to decide for yourself which factors matter most. Georgetown (including its CAS) has a lot going for it, including a great location, internship opportunities, small classes, and good financial aid.</p>

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<p>I am West African, and I can guess from your question about Tsinghua that you are likely chinese. My country also is a former british colony and so most people really don’t know much about American universities or care about it. You can see already that countries differ in their landscape. </p>

<p>When I was in undergrad there was only one international student from mainland china but she worked in new york in an investment bank and then moved to hong kong. So I don’t know how georgetown would have affected her career prospects. In the past the large majority of people from mainland china have typically come to America for graduate school with things changing a lot now.</p>

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<p>Low endowment is one of many factors that affects Georgetown’s reputation. The big issue is that its essentially a liberal art school being ranked as a University. Its really like ranking a good LAC under the same metrics as that of a University. This is the same case for schools like Dartmouth, Brown.</p>

<p>Georgetown never focused initially on being a research university (which is stupid IMO) and was historically just a regional school. I think a new president with large visions managed to transform it into a National University. </p>

<p>tk21769 has outlined some good reasons why its reputation varies. But they all boil down to the fact that the initial mission goals of the university was not to be a research-based university but an undergraduate-focused on. This was short-sighted because now with the popularity of the world rankings which reward research-based universities even schools like Dartmouth and Brown are being questioned as “top universities.” </p>

<p>I doubt based on attending Georgetown and now doing graduate school in a school that is top 3 in USNews (where i have TAed some of the kids) that there is any big difference in undergraduate education that most people argue so confidently on CC. Also weak department does not necesssarily mean weak classes or poor offerings at the graduate level. Its just means low citations and publications within a department which are applied as a proxy for evaluating faculty strength. Then those world rankings have weird stuff like number of international students and faculty. Alumni scores (yeah like a nobel laureate in 1932 should really have an impact on the reputation of a school). Subjective peer assessments that would make a statistics student honestly go crazy.</p>

<p>There are a huge number of graduate students from Tsinghua in science/engineering PhDs in America. Tsinghua & Peking are probably more represented in PhD programs than any school. Most Americans dont like to go into PhD programs</p>

<p>The question is reputation to who?</p>

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<p>I just realized you might also be from Hong Kong. Another friend I went to georgetown with was straight from Hong Kong (She went to United World College in Hong Kong) and she worked briefly for an international recruiting firm there and I got a lot of information about how schools were viewed by employers (American and british schools). She also attended graduate school afterwards in one of the Hong Kong Universities you listed. I can ask her some information if you want to PM me.</p>

<p>I have to say that in some countries international rankings tend to be more important than national rankings even though a lot of these international rankings use arguably meaningless methodologies. USNEWs has its faults but International rankings take it to another level. How can a scholar in Germany or France really measure the education of an American school? Even within my department there are several subfields and I only know schools that are good in that subfield. </p>

<p>With respect to Tsinghua, as I said it has to be really respected in America because there are like the most represented school in any top Science/Engineering PhD program. In my experience they also tend to be more knowledgeable about their field than the average American graduate.</p>

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<p>In answer to your question about atmosphere, the two places I know best are U. Penn and UVa. U. Penn is in the middle of Phila, which is the 5th largest city in the US. However, there is a real campus with landscaped open spaces, a major riverfront trail nearby, etc. There is a huge complex of hospitals to the immediate south, as well as historic neighborhoods to the west and Drexel University and Center City to the east. Phila. is a very interesting place to go to college.</p>

<p>UVa is in Charlottesville, Va., which is a metro area of about 100,000 people. It has many of the same cultural features you would find in a much larger city. In the last 10 years, UVa’s Asian student population has greatly increased. Cville is surrounded by beautiful countryside and has the Shenandoah National Park 30 minutes to the west. It is 1.5 hours from rapidly expanding employment centers in Northern Va. and 2 hours from DC. </p>

<p>Many undergrads at UVa apply in their 3rd year to the undergrad Commerce School, which is one of the best undergrad business programs in the country. Many are not accepted, and become economics majors as their second choice. UVa is particularly well known for its Business, Law, English, History and Politics/Government programs. I don’t think people pay too much attention to Sociology. </p>

<p>Washington DC is also a really great place for a college student. However, housing and other living costs are much higher in DC than in Phila or Cville. Georgetown’s campus is next to a popular shopping and entertainment corridor, as well as historic neighborhoods and the Potomac River. DC has undergone great revitalization and has some of the best city neighborhoods in the country.</p>

<p>Georgetown attracts many sons and daughters of international dignitaries and diplomats.</p>

<p>Also, in terms of graduate program reputation, I believe that size matters more than it should. If a program has a huge number of profs, research grants and PhD candidates, more people across the US will be familiar with their program and will rank it highly. That does not necessarily mean that the larger programs provide a better education than the smaller programs. Overall, UVa is much smaller in its enrollments in undergrad and grad programs than most other public flagship universities, and therefore its graduate programs are not as well known (other than law and business which are top rated).</p>