decline an early decision acceptance offer?

Parents Forum
181

<p>I don’t quite go for Calmom’s car purchase analogy post 97. I see a guy needs transport for a job, and so he needs a car. I see that he needs a loan to get one. BUT after he has received the car(acceptance to ED school) and then later finds Uncle Harry could have loaned him one(free ride) he has already committed to the dealer of the first car.</p>

<p>And for Dstarks idea that a student doesn’t have a deal before he sees the final offer from an ED school. Sure he does. When he signs the paper and parents sign the paper that he will attend if accepted, then I see it as waiving the cost. Haven’t we all hired a repairman without finalizing the price, then being surprised at the total? The time to negotiate is before you accept the services, not after.</p>

<p>It is possible for Op to attend the ED school. It is more awkward; it is more costly; but it is possible. I don’t agree the Op’s finances changed. He and family still have the same money available to them they had a wk ago or a month ago. The only thing that has changed is they now have an offer that makes it easier on them financially. Going back to Calmom’s analogy, I’d say they were foolish not to have checked around more thoroughly before they committed to the new car. But that is what they did, and while they may not get in trouble legally, I think the moral decision is clear.</p>

182

<p>“I don’t think the problem for UPenn is this ONE case. The problem will become real if this starts to happen more often, which it will once the news spreads.”</p>

<p>I’m no fan of ED, but it is what it is. I think both calmom and marite make excellent points. But IMHO midmo has captured crucial point … whether ED is a good thing or a bad thing, it won’t survive is people start treating the agreement as some sort of upscale Rolling Admissions application.</p>

183

<p>Never waiving the cost. Never.</p>

<p>And it is not for the school to decide what is possible.</p>

184

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<p>Oh good grief, I wouldn’t bring up MIT EA at all to Penn. Under no circumstances. Not at all. Mr. Penn then has the option to say, “Once you get admitted here ED, you are obligated to withdraw all other apps. Why have you not withdrawn MIT? Tell you what kid, we’re revoking your ED app. Or at a minimum, we’re not going to be in a good frame of mind to want to give you even more money.”</p>

<p>I think the OP has the Penn State full ride in his back pocket. It’s to his benefit to negotiate with Penn as much as possible – I really want to go to your fine school, I’m so honored to be admitted ED, but it really isn’t possible unless you swing me $XYZ more in aid. Go from there. If Penn is able to swing the $XYZ - great. If Penn can’t, then you say, I’m sorry, but I really can’t, and then you (quietly) move on to Penn State.</p>

185

<p>This post is not directed at the OP, but rather at those who are arguing that it’s totally justified to bail out:</p>

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<p>What you’re advocating is that as long as you keep yourself uninformed, you should enjoy all the benefits of signing a contract, but be exempt from any of its consequences.</p>

<p>I wonder how sympathetic people would feel if this free pass is requested for non-financial reasons. “Yes, I can afford the $200K and I thought ED would give me an edge in getting into Univ A, but now I have been admitted to Univ B, and my parents won’t support me going to A, because, take your pick, in ED univ A: there’s no one from my race/religion, my BF/GF wont be here, it’s too cold and my health may be affected (we have a family history of depression in cold dark winters), it’s too far away and my parents want me to be not more than an hour away… etc. None of these considerations have changed since I applied, but my parents and I are amateurs in this game and didn’t consider any of these points when we signed, and, because ED is a manipulative tool in favor of the big bad universities, we should be released with no prejudice…”</p>

<p>I really don’t have anything against people who argue against ED and lobby to have it removed - that’s a perfectly justifiable stance; but once you signed you chose to agree to play by rules that you particularly didn’t agree with.</p>

186

<p>Well, which is why I think that OP needs to keep Penn-State-Full-Ride AND Potential-MIT-EA out of any discussions with Penn entirely. </p>

<p>Penn admitted OP in good faith - that OP wasn’t looking elsewhere, that OP’s “job” was to love Penn above all and Penn’s job was to put together the best financial aid package to meet OP’s needs. I think OP just needs to play from the perspective that he’s so honored, blah blah blah, but it just isn’t enough, and isn’t there more than can be shaken down? If Penn shakes down enough, then great … go to Penn … if not, respectfully decline and wow, you’ve got a free ride at Penn State, that’s not too shabby. If MIT gets wind of the whole thing, they won’t be too pleased, so I’d write them off at this point.</p>

187

<p>“Once you get admitted here ED, you are obligated to withdraw all other apps.”</p>

<p>This is untrue; the obligation starts when the ED FA offer is accepted by the student.</p>

188

<p>BTW, one of my incredibly cynical relatives read the many well-considered letters to UPenn suggested above, and has suggested alternate wording:</p>

<p>"Dear UPenn,</p>

<p>I am deeply disappointed in you. Two months ago, when I applied ED, I went to a lot of trouble filling out your application, getting ED signatures from my parents and my GC, assuring everyone that your school was the one for me. But you know, things have changed. Another school is offering me a full-ride, and you aren’t matching that offer. I don’t understand your attitude at all. Had this full ride offer not come along I would have definitely attended your school. But now, no way … you have competition, and you have been found wanting.</p>

<p>I still have an application pending at MIT. You could alleviate some of my disappointment with your school by calling MIT and telling them that they’d better come up with a MUCH better FA package than you offered if they expect me to attend.</p>

<p>(signed) A formerly committed applicant"</p>

189

<p>Ok my 2 cents: possible= subjective term - what is possible for one is not necessarily possible for another person. This is the crux of the OP’s dilemma. I can see a parent saying that he/she won’t borrow $$ at all since it is no longer necessary due to full ride offer. Talking to Penn first seems the most straightforward course.</p>

<p>I think I am coming at this from a different personal perspective than many others here. Way back when, I would have loved to go to HYP. The one I loved did not have ED then, so no problem, no application. I needed a lot of fin. aid, and EFC was not zero, but parents would not pay anything (a loan for my college - fall off the couch laughing - bravo to those parents who do that). I did get some aid, and I did suffer to pay what I needed to by work, borrowing etc to go to the non HYP that I went to. I would have done the same for HYP if only I had gotten in. To me, I would have loved the perceived (or real) boost that saying that this school is my first choice may have given - no question about it. I could have suffered a lot less to go to state u or even safety school, but to me I wanted to go elsewhere. BTW, my parents played zero part in the decision, and although they signed the fin. aid applications, they read them not (pretty dumb, huh? They gave me a tax return, signed the form, and the rest was up to me. Don’t assume that the parents of the OP even knew what they signed. (yes, that makes them accountable, but not necessarily intentionally devious.) As to the behavior of those in debt, I have seen many who buy that big tv, designer purse or whatever, even though they were already in debt and could not afford it.</p>

<p>I read all the posts above, and I see no ethical fault in the ED process on the part of the colleges in offering it. What I see is complaints by potential FA applicants that they do not get to compare FA offers if they use ED. That much everyone should understand in advance, and if one applies, one takes that condition (in contracts there can be implied conditions) as a given. The FA applicant decries the fact that they will not have an advantage in admission since they must compare offers, therefore the stated mission of the college is a bit of a falsehood in terms of economic diversity… Um this is where I lose this position. If you want a perceived advantage, you must abide by the terms. These are not Constitutional Rights, but a chance to go to a desirable private college for less than the sticker price. The playing field will never be level in this arena.</p>

<p>I also disagree about the fact that ED actually lessens the competition for a spot over RD, even though the acceptance rate is higher. What you will never know, and what I have found no where are published stats for ED candidates. It is my impression, from individual data points of people I know only, that the ED acceptances at Cornell, Penn, Dartmouth, Brown, Columbia and Yale (SCEA - a bit different, but not for my point) are the cream of the cream except for legacy, developmental admits, URM and recruited athletes. If you have a slightly lower GPA or Sat or whatever, this is NOT your chance to improve your odds because it is your first choice school. I may be wrong, but if someone has other data points for students who are not legacy, etc getting in ED to these schools, I would love to know about them. We have heard on cc of kids with 4.0 GPAs, full pay, 2200+ and legacy not getting in ED.</p>

<p>Full disclosure: so many posts posted while I was typing that I did not read the several above my own.</p>

190

<p>Doesn’t applying ED mean that is your number one school? Where is OP’s love for the school? If she were truly saying, gosh I wish Penn offered more because it is my first choice than I would be more on her “side” of this debate.</p>

<p>She is saying instead, I don’t want my parents in debt. Admirable, but doesn’t address why she applied ED.</p>

<p>I counter that her parents aren’t uninformed, nor is she. Where does she state she or her parents didn’t understand the terms of the ED process?</p>

<p>I previously said you can get out of an ED contract if the financial offer isn’t good enough for your family finances. Not if other schools have already offered a full ride. And not if you suddenly decide it isn’t your first choice.</p>

<p>You apply ED because it is your first choice. You decline offer if the finances don’t work out.</p>

<p>Other schools’ offers have no bearing on this at all. If she declines she is free to go with whatever school she wants. If she doesn’t decline than she can’t apply to other schools and play off offers to see if other schools (that she likes better) equal Penn State’s full ride.</p>

191

<p>Good post, dad<em>of</em>3. Three observations on the OP’s situation:</p>

<p>Any student who is “sophisticated” enough to apply to ED to Penn should also be “sophisticated” enough to understand and, if need be, help his or her parents understand that an ED acceptance requires a commitment to attend if accepted. </p>

<p>I don’t have a huge problem with reneging on the ED commitment to attend State U *if * the financial aid package Penn offered is insufficient to enable the student to attend without severe hardship. </p>

<p>I have a huge problem with keeping the MIT application alive after the Penn ED acceptance. Once that ED acceptance came in, the OP’s college search was at an end. Full stop. S/he is expected to immediately withdraw all other live applications. No keeping the MIT application open in order to play MIT’s financial aid offer against Penn’s. If I were Penn Admissions, I’d rescind the acceptance for engaging in such machinations.</p>

192

<p>People seem to have a problem with the following concept.</p>

<p>“Once you get admitted here ED, you are obligated to withdraw all other apps.”</p>

<p>This is untrue; the obligation starts when the ED FA offer is accepted by the student."</p>

193

<p>NewHope,</p>

<p>Loved the letter. Cynical, yes, but on point. </p>

<p>I would recommend that the letter show a “cc” to OP’s guidance counselor, and the two teachers at her school who wrote her letters of recommendation. Should also include OP’s description of her high school that she made in the UPenn forum.</p>

<p>Perhaps the guidance counselor and the teachers might decide they have the right to “rescind” the letters of recommendation.</p>

194

<p>Coming out of deep lurker status. I’m confused. As I understand MIT’s Early Action application, she is free to apply to any other Non-restrictive Early Admission schools. UPenn’s Early Decision app allows you to apply to only one institution Early Decision. State schools with their earlier deadlines and in some cases rolling admissions have always been the exception.</p>

<p>Every year around this time, there is someone who either does not understand the restrictions or willingly flouts the rules. I’m not ascribing any motives to the OP, but to me a bigger problem is the MIT EA application. Her Early Action application to MIT, along with an Early Decision app to UPenn goes against their stated policies.</p>

195

<p>vossron, you state that it is only binding when the applicant accepts the offer. Isn’t applying ED essentially accepting the offer of admission? In other words, from Penn’s own website: “For those applicants who have already decided that the University of Pennsylvania is their first college choice and who agree to matriculate if accepted, we encourage application under the Early Decision Plan”</p>

<p>Who agree to matriculate, IF ACCEPTED. Further, they need to withdraw all other apps at that time. </p>

<p>"Early Decision (Binding)
Early decision (ED) programs are usually binding. ‘Binding’ means that the applicant promises from the start that they will attend the school if their application is accepted. It is not an obligation to be taken lightly, since schools honor one another’s binding decisions. If you renege on an early decision obligation to one school, it is unlikely that another competitive school will accept you. Students can seek release from an early decision obligation on the grounds of financial hardship, if the financial aid package they are offered is genuinely inadequate; however, the burden of proof in these cases is on the student. (By the way, an important drawback to early decision admissions is that they leave applicants with no leverage to negotiate a better financial aid package – the school knows you can’t go anywhere else.)</p>

<p>Early decision applicants are expected to submit only one early decision application to one school. They can submit applications to other schools under normal application procedures, but agree that they will withdraw all those applications if they are accepted to the early decision school"</p>

<p>So, Vossron, it doesnt say once the applicant accepts…but when they are accepted by the Univ they must withdraw…hence MIT must be withdrawn, and OP needs to justify that the financial aide offered isn’t adequate.</p>

<p>The above quote is from:[Early</a> Decision versus Action Admissions](<a href=“http://www.admissionsconsultants.com/college/earlydecision.asp]Early”>Early Action and Early Decision Admissions Explained)</p>

196

<p>MIT’s EA allows people to apply to other schools, there is no problem. UPenn’s ED also allows people to apply to other schools, so far so good. The only catch is with ED, you need to withdraw other applications when you are admitted, that’s where notifying MIT comes in. OP should really notify MIT before MIT’s decision comes out, since they are so close it would be hard to fault OP for not acting on it sooner, but it would not be right for OP to accept MIT’s EA over UPenn’s ED.</p>

197

<p>“IMPORTANT NOTE: As noted above, a student may apply Early Decision to only one institution. Accordingly, if an applicant for Early Decision to the University of Pennsylvania also applies for Early Decision to another school, the Early Decision application to the University of Pennsylvania will be withdrawn. Further, if any Regular Decision applicant to the University of Pennsylvania is accepted Early Decision under a College Board approved Early Decision plan by any other school, the application to the University of Pennsylvania will be withdrawn.”</p>

<p>I don’t see anything about early action.</p>

<p>"MIT…Early Action Versus Regular Action
If you feel strongly that MIT is right for you, you may want to consider applying to MIT “Early Action” in November of your senior year. If you have taken all the required standardized tests on or by the November test date and postmark all of the application materials by November 1, you may ask that we review your application and notify you of admission by mid-December. At that time we will either offer you admission, defer the decision until March, or (in rare cases) deny the application.</p>

<p>Our early program is non-binding; if you are admitted under Early Action, you may accept or decline the offer, and in either case you are not required to reply until May 1. We do not require a deposit to hold your place. We are committed to taking no more than 30% of our total admitted freshman class under Early Action.</p>

<p>Please note that MIT’s Early Action program is available only to citizens and permanent residents of the United States."</p>

198

<p>An admissions dean of a prestigous LAC to which my D applied ED told me that a listing of ED acceptance decisions for each member University and college is distributed among the member colleges and universities. So OP’s ED acceptance will not remain a secret between her and UPenn. MIT and the state college will find out. That admissions dean said that when she gets this list, she e-mails (or writes) to all applicants who have applied to her LAC who were accepted ED elsewhere that her LAC deems the applicant’s non-ED application now automatically withdrawn.</p>

<p>If the state school is a member institution, it may automatically (eventually) withdraw the previous offer of admission.</p>

<p>As said earlier, not only does the applicant sign the ED agreement, but also a parent and the high school guidance counsellor. How can a parent sign the ED agreement and not know what it means?</p>

<p>At my D’s high school, the school will not let a student apply ED to more than one place (as OP seems to have done with UPenn and MIT), and if a student applies early action, the school will only support one other application. Clearly OP’s HS college counsellor is an idiot, or OP is simply off on her own.</p>

<p>The OP is clearly a smart person, having gained acceptance to UPenn with excellent SAT scores, etc., also having applied to MIT. She should know what she has done and its consequences.</p>

<p>OP is clearly gaming the system, as admission officers usually caution against when they discuss the ED application process, to the detriment of other honest and hard working applicants.</p>

<p>Please, OP stop whining. Just condescend to go to UPenn, a school many would kill to get into.</p>

<p>I wonder if the facts here and elsewhere are all true, or, instead, if the OP is simply a ■■■■■ having a little fun on various boards.</p>

199

<p>3321, thanks for the link.</p>

<p>“Students can seek release from an early decision obligation on the grounds of financial hardship, if the financial aid package they are offered is genuinely inadequate; however, the burden of proof in these cases is on the student. (By the way, an important drawback to early decision admissions is that they leave applicants with no leverage to negotiate a better financial aid package – the school knows you can’t go anywhere else.)”</p>

<p>SO…</p>

<p>ED is not binding.</p>

<p>Thanks.</p>

200

<ol>
<li>Penn has made a determination of the OP’s EFC. This is a subjective determination made by people. Is this as generous as it would have been during the RD round? I suspect not. </li>
<li>The OP has determined that it is insufficient. She is turning down the current UPENN offer because under the current circumstances, it is not possible for her to attend. Under this circumstance, she is not required to withdraw other applications. </li>
<li>She filled out the arduous MIT application and presumably paid an application fee to apply to MIT. Given that she is turning down UPENN’s inadequate offer, and it’s only a few days, she is certainly entitled to get a second opinion on what a reasonable EFC is. It will likely be the same, but it will be determined by different people and may be a significantly better offer. Different schools have been know to make different calculations of EFC. The US Supreme Court has determined that they cannot collude in this area. </li>
<li>Under no circumstances, can she attend MIT without making a good faith effort to negotiate with UPENN. This point is key! She is giving UPENN every opportunity to make it possible for her to attend. </li>
<li>To answer momofthreeboys question, she can tell MIT about the UPENN ED after all negotiation with UPENN has been completed. If she is going to UPENN, she has to withdraw her application, per the ED agreement. If she cannot come to terms with UPENN, but she can afford to go to MIT, it will be a difficult conversation, but she will have documented the different financial offers, including UPENN’s refusal to match MIT’s opinion of a need-based EFC. I don’t think UPENN could have any complaints in this circumstance. She still has to convince MIT they she can afford their offer, but not UPENNs. I think that MIT would have to agree since they independently calculated her need and found it greater than UPENN did. They can’t then go back and say that they were being too generous. </li>
<li>Most likely, she will go to her state school. I just hate to see kids give up their dreams without a fair fight. </li>
</ol>

<p>An additional point, is that if UPENN really wanted to hold kids to their own EFC calculation, they could have added a stronger ED statement in their supplement taking away the out since they say that they meet total demonstrated need. That would most likely scare a lot of people away and would be counterproductive. For the most part ED works the way it was intended.</p>

<p>I also want to add, that she is not waiting for MIT’s offer to determine if it is possible to attend UPENN. She has already determined that it is not.</p>