<p>Well I’m certainly laughing at this while I’m watching football! </p>
<p>Patriots pull one out! Go Pats.</p>
<p>Blueredbeaver could still be a Penn Engineer. Every engineer wants to be a Beaver!</p>
<p>For the sake of completeness, OP described her high school as a “crappy public full of minorities and poors.” Really warms my egalitarian heart.</p>
<p>OP is looking more like a ■■■■■ all the time.</p>
<p>Nah, the OP is not a ■■■■■. The OP thought she had it all figured out. She just didn’t count on maybe liking MIT more than UPenn and probably didn’t figure out a “full ride” would be terribly enticing to her parents. I don’t feel anything for the OP since I don’t know the OP and can’t read the OPs mind…I can only speculate. Teenagers pretty much talk “down” their schools and all that other nonsense.</p>
<p>Good point.</p>
<p>The one thing I wanted to add after reading this through is that it does nobody any favors to discuss whether or not ED is legally binding if MIT will know about the ED acceptance, which it will…It is binding because the schools make it binding. UPenn and MIT all travel in a similar orbit. Saying there’s no legal ramifications is misleading. There could be heavy long-term consequences to this student just because of some theoretical musings we are making.</p>
<p>OTOH, very few institutions will fight a student going to the STATE school because that is a true admission of financial straights, in thier view. Also, it is non-competitive. </p>
<p>So, yes, technically, in a court of law, the UPenn acceptance may not be binding. But for the purposes of peer institutions, and this includes MIT, it is. Just thought the student might like to know they are playing a dangerous game with that one. fWIW.</p>
<p>Gotta watch those full ride offers too…they usually come with having to keep a certain GPA. State schools are known for weeder classes and no hand holding. Unlike the Ivy’s they don’t care if you pass.</p>
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Not necessarily. For some students, state school is actually more expensive than the private offering good FA. Also, a full ride at a state school is not a sure thing until offered, so I don’t think this was really an option for OP until it was actually on the table.</p>
<p>I think OP will be free to attend state school. MIT, probably not. I do wonder if some of OP’s confusion is due to being a new immigrant. These policies are complex and we don’t know how well guidance counselor explained everything. GC presumably signed on to all apps and should be advising student about dropping the MIT app if necessary.</p>
<p>anneroku-- you are right…state school absolutely can be more expensive, but it does seem to be the one place these schools are willing to let the admitted attend after ED, for whatever reason. (I have my ideas, but won’t speculate)</p>
<p>" I do wonder if some of OP’s confusion is due to being a new immigrant."</p>
<p>I doubt it. The OP and her parents are savvy enough to have navigated a new country well enough for the D to gain acceptances to 1 of the country’s top colleges. I doubt that these people were confused at all about what ED meant.</p>
<p>^ All it takes is a competent HS college counselor and a competitive app. Allegedly “crappy” school doesn’t mean a poor counselor.</p>
<p>According to the OP, she goes to a “crappy” high school. Doesn’t sound like a place where the GCs would be that familiar with what the OP could do in 2 years in the U.S. to be accepted to U Penn.</p>
<p>Given the various things the OP has said that don’t add up, I have a hard time believing that she’s first gen college. It’s easy for immigrant parents to deny going to college if they aren’t able to work in their fields in the U.S., something that can be true of immigrants in many fields including in things like medicine.</p>
<p>I simply don’t believe that a first gen, immigrant from Asia could have achieved so much in 2 years in this country in a “crappy” school in the midwest without getting guidance from highly sophisticated parents.</p>
<p>I don’t think there was any confusion on the part of the OP. I think she had any intention of not finding out her status at MIT even at the point she got accepted at UPenn and I think she never gave it a thought when she hit “click” on the easy app to the State School, she probably never figured a state school full ride and/or didn’t think her parents would get excited about that figuring they would go for the name brand. The only thing I don’t know is if she would willingly go to UPenn or secretly wants to go to MIT and is trying to figure that out…we just don’t know that, but it does clearly point out the potential pit falls of ED.</p>
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<p>[url=<a href=“http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANGWy_b_ovY]YouTube”>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANGWy_b_ovY]YouTube</a> - Michael Bubl</p>
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You may be right. But it’s possible that the OP came out of her home country’s schools already at a very advanced level. She may simply be an outstanding candidate; it’s hard to tell.</p>
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<p>This simply is untrue as a matter of law. There is nothing that OP needs to do to “get out” of the agreement other than to simply notify the school that she is declining because the financial aid award is inadequate to meet her needs. </p>
<p>The ED agreement is unenforceable as to ANY applicant when it comes to sending a deposit or enrolling. The only way to make it into a legally enforceable agreement would be to add a mitigated damages clause, specifying a fixed amount of money that the applicant needs to pay if they fail to honor the agreement. But the college can’t MAKE a student come, nor charge or collect tuition if the student fails to enroll.</p>
<p>However, the college CAN (and does) notify other colleges when they have admitted students ED, and other colleges can respect that notice and withdraw their offers of admission. This is the practical means of enforcement, and it works to keep ED kids from shopping among peer institutions, or simply changing their mind. However, most public universities do NOT care and – while it probably would be a good idea for OP to verify that the offer from State U. stands even in the face of the Penn ED acceptance. </p>
<p>Penn probably doesn’t care if it loses some financially needy ED admits to full-ride offers from state schools. I don’t know what state U. offered OP the money, but I’m guessing its not one of those public U’s that show up on the first page of the US News rankings. It’s pretty clear that OP is weighing the Penn offer against the offer from a far less prestigious school, and OP will be giving up the Ivy degree and all that entails when she opts to take the free ride offer from NoName U. </p>
<p>As to the issue of when OP can properly decline: legally, courts like to see contracts that are in parity, with a concept called “mutuality” - meaning that both sides have roughly equivalent rights and obligations. For non financial aid applicants, the ED contract is questionable, because the college has the sole ability to decide whether or not to accept the applicant. The college does not have to explain or justify its decision to accept or reject an applicant - and at the time of making its election, an essential term of the contract (cost) has not been specifically set. </p>
<p>For financial aid applicants, however, the ED contract is more likely to pass legal muster, because it does have mutuality. It works like this:<br>
- College decides whether to accept applicant ED, and notifies applicant of cost of enrollment via financial aid package (“offer”)
- Applicant has option to review financial aid package, and choice to either accept or decline offer. </p>
<p>This fits well into a standard legal contract model – but ONLY IF the applicant is in fact free to decline. There is no rule that requires the applicant to justify their decision – it is, in fact, pretty common that a college and applicant do not see eye-to-eye on what “demonstrated need” is. </p>
<p>So legally, OP is CLEARLY in the right if she declines the Penn ED offer in favor of the full ride at State U. OP has now decided that she can afford to pay -0- for college and Penn’s offer requires her to pay more than -0-. OP was not legally required to make a decision as to how much she could pay prior to the time of receiving Penn’s financial aid offer – just as Penn was not required to tell OP what she would have to pay until after notifying her of admission. </p>
<p>Contract law is based on notions of equity and fairness; courts enforce contracts that they think are fair, and they will not enforce contracts that they feel cross the lines of what is ethical or fair. So even though my post is based on LAW (where I am confident that I am on pretty firm ground) – I feel that that legal considerations are pretty much parallel to ethical ones. What is legal is ethical and vice versa. I find the idea that a person could be bound to an illegal, unenforceable contract for reasons of “honor” to be abhorrent. </p>
<p>The OP loses a lot with the ED contract, even as she turns it down: She loses the opportunity to attend an Ivy League college and she loses the opportunity to apply to and consider offers from other private colleges in the RD round – because Penn can and will notify the other colleges of the ED admission. </p>
<p>If she or her parents would have to go into debt for her to attend Penn – then by definition the cost is more than they can afford. Of course most students and many parents borrow to attend college – but we borrow precisely because we do not have the cash on hand. It’s a legitimate decision for students and their parents to go into heavy debt to finance college, but it is one that ONLY they can make and no one else has the right to force upon them.</p>
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<p>Based on the stats OP posted, and the fact that she has been accepted at Penn SEAS and applied to MIT – I think she fits into a highly coveted class of applicants: a female who is really great at math.</p>
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<p>Northstarmom, I hate to generalize, but as a first generation Asian immigrant, a few things could be different for OP that you may not have considered. Many Asian immigrant communities are a lot closer than the typical 5th generation immigrant community, and having unsophisticated parents could have been more than compensated by having a “village” that raises the kids. I personally know several Asian kids whose parents are not wealthy or educated; but because they have access to many mentors who are eager to help, and actively seek out what is needed to succeed, they are more street-smart than you would give them credit for. A lot of OP’s success could have come, not from her “crappy” school, but from the circle of people s/he hangs out with.</p>
<p>Edit: Re post 358 - Marite, I’m only disagreeing with Northstarmom’s observation about OP’s parents. I don’t have any legal upbringing, so I won’t comment on what is or isn’t legal. I’m with you 100% with your statement “No one forces … commitment.”</p>
<p>Re post 357: Not having cash on hand does not equate being unable to afford something.<br>
Otherwise, no one would be having mortgages. We borrowed to pay for our kids’ education; we’re still paying down two full fares , but we did so knowing that we could afford to go that route, just as we took out a mortgage knowing we could afford to pay it down.</p>
<p>No one forces students to apply ED. Holding someone to an ED commitment may be legally unenforceable. It does not make it ethical to break that commitment.</p>
<p>Would anyone be happy if colleges wrote: “Oops, we admitted too many students, so we have to un-admit a few of you. You are among the unfortunate ones who will be un-admitted”?</p>
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<p>I’m sorry NSM, but there are some very impressive people out there. </p>
<p>NSM, after 15,000 posts, I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt. I know that you don’t mean what I think you just said, but will you please reread it, replace Asia with some other group and see how it reads. I know that you didn’t mean what you just said. </p>
<p>That kind of “belief” in what certain groups of people can and can’t do has kept a lot of people down over the years. You have to believe in the possible.</p>
<p>When you borrow for a mortgage, you have a tangible asset with monetary value. The value of the asset generally exceeds the value of the debt. (And when it doesn’t, borrowers sometimes opt to walk away from the debt). </p>
<p>If I suffer financial setbacks at work tomorrow and can no longer afford to pay my mortgage, I can sell my house. I’ve got nothing to “sell” to pay the PLUS loans, however. (I could try to sell my daughter, but it wouldn’t be legal and she’s unlikely to cooperate in such a scheme). </p>
<p>Again, the ED contract is expressly subject to the applicant’s acceptance of the financial aid offer. Penn’s offer isn’t good enough, so OP isn’t obligated. </p>
<p>Marite – did you borrow to send your son to college? Did your son take on debt?</p>