<p>Calmom-- What do you think about the student continuing with the MIT play? If it isn’t binidng, the ED (which I agree with you 100% on the ethics of ED from an institutional perspective, though I don’t have the law background.)…Do you feel the applicant can continue with the MIT EA even though she will not know the FA until spring? Or do you feel turning down Penn will make that impossible for her?</p>
<p>calmom, yes they can decline an ED offer if the financial aide offer doesn’t meet their need, but they do have to justify their claim. Need is based on EFC. If their EFC hasn’t changed, no one has lost a job etc., then they can’t simply say the offer isn’t good enough, they have to provide a reason, meaning they have to say something has changed since the initial info was provided (which was used to determine the package).</p>
<p>Getting a full-ride offer from state doesn’t mean Penn isn’t offering a decent enough package.</p>
<p>Certainly all families would simply say the offer isn’t good enough, and that would make ED moot. Unless a family is sure that a school will offer the student a full-ride based on need, if they can’t afford their EFC they shouldn’t apply ED.</p>
<p>Yes, I borrowed to pay for my two kids’ education. I’m still paying down. Another $100k+ to go. I’m not complaining. Both kids could have gotten merit money, possibly full rides somewhere. </p>
<p>I am going by the OP’s first post, from which I gathered that the OP’s parents were willing to pay something toward the OP’s education but then, the full ride came along…</p>
<p>
I am assuming that Penn will notify MIT of the ED acceptance and MIT will honor that… so MIT would no longer be in play – though I recall a big hoopla a couple of years back when it turned out that Harvard was accepting students RD despite broken ED contracts. If I am mistaken… I suppose that the OP may have another option in the spring. </p>
<p>I wouldn’t read a whole lot into the fact that she is waiting on the MIT acceptance, though – there is ego involved at this point — that is, simple curiosity as to whether she would get in. I mean – there’s a certain emotional reward when she arrives next fall at Podunk U in the ability to tell her classmates that she turned down both Penn & MIT to be there. </p>
<p>I don’t think there’s any harm in her letting the MIT EA application ride at this point – the decision has already been made, and if MIT notifies applicants by mail, then its probably too late even to pull the letter from the mail. (There’s a whole lot of printing and envelope stuffing that has to go on before any sort of mass mailing). So at this point she’s not taking anyone else’s “spot”.</p>
<p>Marite, the OP’s post #17 specified:
</p>
<p>She said in post #1 that Penn’s offer “is not too horrible” – she never said it was “good”. </p>
<p>Having looked over my share of financial aid offers, I have a pretty good idea of what “not too horrible” means. I was very glad when my kids ended up with financial aid offers that were a little better than the “not too horrible” offers. I could have managed the “not too horrible” ones but they were well beyond what I expected or wanted to pay.</p>
<p>post 364…"I don’t think there’s any harm in her letting the MIT EA application ride at this point – the decision has already been made, and if MIT notifies applicants by mail, then its probably too late even to pull the letter from the mail. (There’s a whole lot of printing and envelope stuffing that has to go on before any sort of mass mailing). So at this point she’s not taking anyone else’s “spot”.</p>
<p>Sorry I disagree. She is taking someone else’s spot potentially. Many schools that offer ED only admit so many ED’s applicants. So the OP could be taking a spot that someone else could have had by not honoring her agreement with Penn and now she is also potentially taking a spot at MIT and at State school as well. Does the OP really think she will get a full ride to MIT??? I doubt it. In fact I think the OP is just shopping around and never really took the whole ED thing seriously which can impact other people. Define harm? If another kid could have the MIT spot(Assuming that she gets in there) than I do think harm is involved when the OP is not being ethical. Ethics are everything.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>So we’re back to “impossible” vs. “desirable.” I interpret “not too horrible” as “fairly decent” or even “quite decent” but I lived in England for a while.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Could you please point me to the place, in writing, where the Penn ED contract specifies that? </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>EFC was not determined as of the time of the application. EFC is determined based on the FAFSA, and FAFSA will not start processing applications until January 1st, 2010 – so by definition there is no EFC figure calculated. Penn is meeting “demonstrated need”, not “EFC”, by its own undisclosed internal formula. Its safe for us to assume that they expect the OP to contribute substantially more than -0-, because I doubt that she’d give up Penn for a full ride at a state U. over a trivial amount of money. </p>
<p>The fact that she mentioned that her parents can’t contribute because of “a big loan to pay” is a good indication that Penn’s calculation of need doesn’t take into account the true financial picture, because personal debt is not generally considered in financial aid calculations.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>No, we’re back to why I hate smug rich people. </p>
<p>If I’m drowning, I’d be happy to find a floating piece of wood that I can cling to – but that doesn’t mean that the floating wood remains a viable option if I come upon a raft, or that either are viable options if a real ship comes sailing by.</p>
<p>calmom, I posted a link earlier that used the term, “justify” when it comes to declining ED offers. I will try to link it again. EFC at this point is based on last year’s income…or fine, call it demonstrated need. I used the term because the calculator that people can use to determine their EFC uses that term. If a family has a big loan to pay, they shouldn’t consider ED. I have always heard that schools determine need with the same general formula, they don’t care if you bought a house with a huge mortgage, or have other loans. If your personal debt makes it too difficult to go beyond what a college would reasonably estimate your demonstrated need, or EFC, then don’t apply ED.</p>
<p>Actually calmom Penn’s financial aid department uses a calculator that is very close in line with the FAFSA when figuring their package for ED applicants.</p>
<p>Also I am a full pay parent and just because I have to take out a “big loan to pay” does not mean it’s a good indication that a school is not taking into account my true financial picture. Colleges expect the parents in general to be the sole responsible party to pay for their children’s education and they should be. The number one thing they look at is income. Many people own huge homes and multiple cars and don’t save much for college. It’s those people who then learn that they must take these big loans out. It’s all how you chose to spend your money.</p>
<p>I may have missed it, but do we know if she is a citizen or permanent resident of the US? Could financial aid for internationals be coming into play?</p>
<p>calmom, thanks for the legal comment. as for all the cant about honor, this thread suffers from the collegiate version of stockholm syndrome.</p>
<p>Two pages back I figured the group had come to consensus … for whatever reasons, the OP got herself in a really unfortunate situation where she was mentally committed to UPenn (or was it MIT?) then got a full-ride offer that changed her perception of whether UPenn was really worth the money, and then decided that UPenn wasn’t worth the money but MIT was worth pursuing as “The New #1” … and she was wondering how to leverage the state-university free ride into a better FA package at UPenn (or was it MIT?) while at the same time getting UPenn to bless her change of allegiance from UPenn to MIT. </p>
<p>Now, if the past few pages are any indication, ED is legally unenforceable, legal equals ethical, and “I hate smug rich people” a legitimate argument. I liked the discussion better when the question was one of integrity (ie, honor the contracts you sign) versus practicality (ie, people change, situations change … UPenn will understand).</p>
<p>Cardinal Fang - best post on this thread
</p>
<p>Can’t beieve all the unethical parents out there advocating backing out of a valid ED agreement</p>
<p>I did not read one post where someone advocated backing out, not one single post. Lots of posts discussing whether it was legal, whether it was ethical, if the OP can or if the OP can’t, discussing how the ED impacts the other apps etc. etc., but not one advocating backing out.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>It takes two parties to reach an agreement. Calling people unethical is out of line - this is merely a discussion of which you seem to be struggling with the basics.</p>
<p>ok, i advocate it–just say “I was 17 when I made that decision, and now I’m 17 and a half–yes my parents signed some agreement, but they’ve been driven insane by the college application process.”</p>
<p>twomules, she referred to herself as “asian american” on the post in the other thread where she listed her stats, so I think she probably is a US citizen.</p>
<p>However, I think its rather unlikely that a first generation, recent immigrant student or her parents has a good understanding of the financial aid system or how it is calculated. I’ve been dealing with it for 9 years now and still find the system complicated and obtuse. I’m a graduate of a top US law school with roughly 20 years of legal experience, much of it involved with business & financial issues – and when it was time for my first kid to apply to college, I didn’t understand the financial aid system, and made all sorts of mistaken assumptions as to how it worked. </p>
<p>One very common mistaken assumption that individuals make is believing that the college will consider the family’s actual expenses or debt. </p>
<p>I went to the Penn web site and couldn’t find the calculator – I’m sure it’s there, but if I didn’t find it, its reasonable to assume that many applicants don’t find that tool either. </p>
<p>I have used the calculators at finaid.org – and the “institutional methodology” results are no where near reality in my case. Not even close. (Federal methodology in the online calculators is highly accurate – but that’s a different ball game entirely). </p>
<p>Along with other info when she posted her stats, the OP mentioned an “abusive stepfather”. Students with stepfathers often also have biological fathers, not married to their mothers, and have to deal with the whole noncustodial parent issue on the CSS Profile. That completely throws the whole financial aid application into the realm of the unknown – online calculators are totally useless in that context. </p>
<p>Finally, colleges tend to hype their financial aid, with the type of reassurances that will lead someone without experience in the system to believe that the colleges will give them a more generous package than they actually receive in the end. I don’t know about Penn – but in general the pitch that colleges make to ED applicants is that they promise to meet “full need” and that if the award is unsatisfactory, the ED applicant will not be obligated to attend.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>oh please - there are a myriad of posts advocating this on this thread - open your eyes</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I am not struggling with anything - its UNETHICAL - plain and simple. just because you have no problem with it doesn’t make this not so. It simply means you have poor ethics in this regard</p>