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Colleges use the deceptive language of advertising and public relations to market themselves, and financial aid is a part of this lying-by-omission. Schools could easily and clearly describe how financial aid is determined. Instead, they choose to use phrases which are deliberately vague and misleading, such as “meeting full need.”</p>
<p>Marite, exactly!!!</p>
<p>Well, I would agree that how I comport myself should not depend on how others comport themselves. However, I also believe when faced with unethical practices, ie, “meets full need” advertising prior to ED, the students are operating on false information…imho. So, in this case, the failure to be ethical actually leads to impossible situations and unethical levels of debt, which ought not to be incurred by anyone at that age…which dn’t even get me started on labeling loans as FA for STUDENTS, when they are, in fact, FA for the schools themselves. However, schools repeatedly encourage kids who will never be able to afford thier school to apply ED. Kids only go through this process once, and many parents allow it the first time but get wiser the second or third. </p>
<p>Also, the posters on here who say, 'I have been saying for years that nobody should apply ED if they can’t afford the school," act as if they have been being quoted by the NYTimes…or Time…or on the TV news. You may have been saying it on CC, but who even knows about CC? Really?</p>
<p>This is what U Penn’s website says about undergraduate financial aid. Sounds like a good deal to me, and the information seems clear and comprehensive. </p>
<p>"Need-Blind Admission
Applications for admission are reviewed without regard to whether the applicant is applying for financial aid. </p>
<p>Meets Full Need
Like other Ivy League universities, Penn does not offer aid based on academic or athletic merit. Aid is based solely on financial need, and Penn is committed to meeting 100% of a student’s determined need. Whether it is $5,000 or $50,000, Penn will find a source to cover it. </p>
<p>No Loans
Penn will not expect dependent students to borrow student loans to meet their academic year financial need."
[You</a> Can Afford Penn](<a href=“http://www.sfs.upenn.edu/paying/paying-pro.htm]You”>Submit My Documents | Penn Student Registration & Financial Services| Penn Srfs)</p>
<p>"</p>
<p>The University’s need-blind admissions policy ensures that no U.S. citizen or permanent resident is denied admission because he or she requires financial assistance. Penn will meet 100% of a student’s demonstrated financial need.</p>
<p>Who is eligible?</p>
<p>There is no arbitrary income cut-off for financial aid eligibility. Because each family situation is different and financial aid eligibility is determined by many factors, we encourage you to apply if you are concerned about your ability to pay.</p>
<p>How is financial need determined?</p>
<p>Financial aid at Penn is awarded on the basis of financial need as determined by Student Financial Services. Financial need is the difference between Penn’s Educational Expense Budget and the amount your family is expected to contribute:</p>
<p>Financial need is determined based on information provided on financial aid applications and parent and student tax returns and W-2 forms. The following items are also considered in determining financial need:</p>
<p>family size
student income and assets
parents’ income and assets
the number of children enrolled in college
extraordinary family circumstances
Penn does not rely on the federally-calculated family contribution. Instead, Penn reviews all aid applications on an individual basis in order to allocate available aid resources as equitably as possible. In many instances, Penn expects a lower parent contribution than the one determined by the federal formula. Financial information from both parents, even if they are divorced or separated, is used to determine financial need.</p>
<p>What is a financial aid award?</p>
<p>A financial aid award, also known as a “package,” typically includes a work-study job and grants. Penn participates in all federal and state programs to provide you with a comprehensive financial aid program to meet 100% of your determined need.</p>
<p>Penn offers loan-free packages to all dependent students who are eligible for financial aid, regardless of the family’s income level.
[Need</a> based Financial Aid for Prospective Undergraduate Students](<a href=“http://www.sfs.upenn.edu/paying/paying-pro-need-based-aid.htm]Need”>http://www.sfs.upenn.edu/paying/paying-pro-need-based-aid.htm)</p>
<p>Examples of average amount of aid freshmen got based on their family income:</p>
<p>[A</a> Look at the Facts, Comparing Penn’s Cost](<a href=“http://www.sfs.upenn.edu/paying/paying-pro-look-at-the-facts.htm]A”>http://www.sfs.upenn.edu/paying/paying-pro-look-at-the-facts.htm)</p>
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<p>Well, I went back to the original post and find that Marite was correct:</p>
<p>“Hi everyone. Does anyone know how to decline an early decision offer due to financial reasons? (If the package is not too horrible, but a state school is offering full ride and since our family background is far from wealthy). Should I write a letter explaining, and just not pay the deposit?”</p>
<p>It was us pesky parents 
that took the discussion on to what ED means, if anything. </p>
<p>Basic answer–write Penn a letter saying that you and your parents can’t afford to pay the amount of the cost of attendance left over after the financial aid package is factored in and so you won’t be able to accept Penn’s offer of ED acceptance.</p>
<p>Also know that if Penn won’t “release you from your ED agreement,” there is no court in the land that would force you to go to Penn and that, as a practical matter, there would be no adverse consequences to you from your walking away–with the exception of that some very prestigious schools may withdraw your application or your acceptance (if you are so lucky) if or when they learn of your actions.</p>
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<p>Yes. I feel that “need” should be defined by the FAFSA and that a college that doesn’t meet FAFSA EFC isn’t truly meeting need. In other words, a student who has to pay more than their EFC has unmet need, no matter how the college likes to market itself.</p>
<p>I don’t have a problem with subsidized loans being included in the package, because interest and payment is deferred and there are a number of programs that students can opt for after graduation to help pay the loans or get loan forgiveness. (Americorps, Teach for America, etc.). I do recognize that there is an extra cost associated with loans… but the fact that there is no out-of-pocket for the student while in school, and that payment can be deferred until the student completes his education makes it a fair deal for me. However – I don’t think unsubsidized loans to the student or parent are a way of meeting need – they are merely alternate means of financing.</p>
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Agree. </p>
<p>From Penn’s website:
My bet is that this occurs so rarely as to not need mentioning and in my opinion it’s deceptive marketing.</p>
<p>Definitely – I’d note that the documentation that contains that phrase does not even hint at the possibility that Penn could be asking for a HIGHER parent contribution than FAFSA EFC.</p>
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<p>I don’t know about “recent immigrant” mulligan, but I would be willing to give a “first generation, not well advised, not well thought out, not poor but not rich at all” mulligan. </p>
<p>The OP, with her financial profile, thought that Penn would come up with a full-ride package. Not knowing the financial particulars, we can’t really know if she was reasonable in her expectations. </p>
<p>Some previous posters have said that Penn is known to be generous in its awarding of financial aid. So, perhaps a good adviser would have run her numbers through a finaid calculator and informed her that her EFC is estimated to be $XX,XXX. Usually, it is the parents who run the finaid numbers through a calculator, not the kid–after all, we’re the ones who will be paying for it. Maybe if her parents had run the numbers, they would have put the ka-bosh on any idea of applying ED.</p>
<p>So mulligan it is.</p>
<p>One thing that I don’t like about ED is the problem that a poster last year had. She had gotten in ED, the financial package worked for her (but just barely). Happy, happy day!</p>
<p>Fast forward to the next year–she filed the updated financial numbers and was told by the school that based on the updated numbers, her financial package had been revised lower. Disaster! Even the low thousands of dollars extra required was impossible. All applications to other colleges had been withdrawn and the deadline for applying for many other new colleges had come and gone. </p>
<p>I never heard what the end of the story was. But it only reinforced to me that ED is NOT for anyone who needs serious financial aid. It is too risky.</p>
<p>I’ve gone back to the Penn financial aid site and look up and down and every which way… and I don’t find any financial aid calculator. Are you sure they have one?</p>
<p>I am about the most savvy person I know about finding stuff online. My kids call ME when they can’t find what they are looking for. The Penn financial aid site is here:
[Welcome</a> to Student Financial Services](<a href=“http://www.sfs.upenn.edu/]Welcome”>http://www.sfs.upenn.edu/)</p>
<p>If it is this tough for me to find the calculator this immigrant family is supposed to have studied before allowing their daughter to apply ED… how are they supposed to have found it?</p>
<p>(In any case - I still don’t think it should be the applicant’s job to figure that out. If Penn can have an online calculator, Penn can make a representation to ED applicants AT THE TIME they apply about likely financial aid. They could write that into the ED contract … and then there would, indeed, be an “agreement”.)</p>
<p>^Any FAFSA finaid calculator. I wasn’t talking about a Penn-specific calculator. You don’t think an applicant applying to college should run a quick and dirty finaid calculation?</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.finaid.org/calculators/quickefc.phtml[/url]”>http://www.finaid.org/calculators/quickefc.phtml</a></p>
<p>Ellemenope, I think that colleges should be bound by their initial offer for the first year to ED applicants, unless there is active fraud or concealment by the parents. As I posted above, I think the colleges should also tell full pay ED applicants what tuition costs will be for the following year, and be locked in to whatever they represent for that year. Yes, they might lose some money in individual cases, but they have the benefit of having a substantial percentage of their class committed to attend by December of the previous year - and a locked-in first year tuition price & financial aid award would provide additional incentive for applicants to apply ED.</p>
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<p>But Penn doesn’t meet FAFSA EFC. So a FAFSA calculator is useless in terms of predicting financial aid.</p>
<p>In fact, its very possible that the OP DID use such a calculator, and was misled by it.</p>
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<p>I agree–people make irrevocable decisions based on the numbers. But in the real world, no college is going to go through the trouble of proving active fraud–very high burden of proof–you have to prove intent. </p>
<p>What do you do with people who would put up fraudulent numbers or just make a big mistake? The colleges seem to be saying that the burden is on you to get the numbers as close to right as you can by leaving themselves the option of changing the finaid award based on accurate numbers.</p>
<p>Again, another risk of applying ED when financial aid is an issue, I guess.</p>
<p>After reading of that predicament from the previous year’s poster, maybe one should leave one safety acceptance on the books until the final, final, final finaid award from the ED school is determined, just in case the award is reduced to the point of making the ED school unworkable. But the accepted applicant must withdraw all applications, which leaves the student dangerously exposed, even if the problem doesn’t seem to come up often (once in the past 6 years I’ve been on CC).</p>
<p>Maybe we should all take an advertisement in the New York Times saying–“If you need financial aid, DON’T apply ED.”</p>
<p>It’s simple enough to ask ED applicants to provide copies of tax returns as part of the application process.</p>
<p>FWIW, when I filed out FAFSA a couple years ago, our EFC was MORE than our combined incomes. Yes, CSS looks at all your assets, including your home equity which FAFSA does not. But FAFSA does not take into consideration your capacity to borrow money, any medical issues, age to retirement, or a lack of retirement. I think it is rare for a person in need of FA to get less from the high end CSS schools like Penn than from the FAFSA calculation.</p>
<p>The OP has stated that her parents are “not exactly wealthy” and that the Penn FA package wasn’t “horrible”. Nowhere do I see that the Penn FA did not make matriculating at Penn financially “possible”. Although initially, it seemed that she wanted to get out of the Penn ED to accept the State U full ride, it now appears that what she really wants is to see if she can get into MIT. If she simply “walks” from the Penn ED, I would expect that Penn will inform MIT of her breach of the ED contract. Even if she contacts Penn, I would not expect Penn to waive her ED contract unless it is to go to State U (assuming that Penn believes that it has met her “demonstrated need”).</p>
<p>Legally, I disagree with Calmom that she has not breached a “contract”. I think that the ED agreement that she and her parents (and GC) signed is a valid contract. There may be no practical remedy for breach, but that does not make it any less valid. Employment agreements are rarely specifically enforceable against employees (the employee can not be made to work for XYZ Company), but remedies can be fashioned by a Court. In this case, Penn’s damages would probably be nominal, probably $1.00, which is why Penn would never bring a case like this to Court. But if there is no contract, then by what right can Penn contact other schools to advise them that she has breached the ED agreement?</p>
<p>Regarding whether the Penn FA package makes it financially possible for her to attend Penn is the type of question that Courts are routinely asked to answer. And financial possibility is not conclusively determined by the OP’s opinion. You may recall the Washington DC judge who sued the dry cleaners over the loss of a pair of pants. He tried to claim that “satisfaction guaranteed” meant that he was entitled to as much money for that pair of pants as he wanted. Not what they were worth, but what he wanted. In this case, the Court would have to determine if the FA that Penn offered made it financially possible for her to go to Penn. If her parents refused to contribute to the cost, the Court (and I believe Penn) would take that into consideration.</p>
<p>Based on everything that the OP has said in this post and the others on the Penn and MIT boards, I personally think the OP is ethically challenged. Even in this thread, the MIT application was initially omitted, and only acknowledged when another poster brought it up. If all the OP wanted was to get out of the Penn ED agreement, then one of the early posts suggesting that she contact Penn and explain the situation was probably the best one. Give Penn the chance to see if they will improve the offer or agree to cancel the ED agreement. But if she wants to cancel the Penn ED agreement, then ethically I think she is bound to accept State U and withdraw any application at MIT (if it hasn’t already been withdrawn by MIT). I am also troubled by the timing of these events. Perhaps reading between the lines, it appears that she was accepted at State U a month ago, but got the free ride financial information recently and probably in advance of the Penn ED decision. It may have only been a day or two, but if she wanted to consider the State U offer, then she should have notified Penn that she wanted to convert her ED application to one for RD. All it would have taken would have been a telephone call or an e-mail. But by leaving the ED application out there for Penn to act on, she got the advantage of Penn’s significant ED bump. And now wants to use the State U offer to either increase Penn’s financial aid or as a basis to cancel the ED agreement so she can see what MIT does.</p>
<p>But the only tax returns that are available at ED application time (November-December) are 2008 tax returns. Aren’t you asked to estimate the 2009 return because finaid is based on 2009 numbers? </p>
<p>You’ll send in the 2009 returns sometime after the New Year when you get your taxes done. Any mistake will get spotlighted then, but by then you’ve already withdrawn applications. If there is a discrepancy in your estimate compared to the actual tax return, it could be a result of a mistake or fraud, but you can’t necessarily tell from the tax return itself.</p>
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<p>Glad you put contracts in quotes, hat. Because if ED colleges really wanted to make ED agreements into real world contracts that they could enforce, believe me–those suckers would probably be 5 pages long with really tiny fine print! :)</p>
<p>From an early article on ED published when Harvard was deciding whether to ditch ED:</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2002/10/3/early-derision-when-news-broke-in/[/url]”>http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2002/10/3/early-derision-when-news-broke-in/</a></p>
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<p>Looks like colleges have gotten more pro-active about sharing info about ED acceptances since this article was written in 2002. But the ED system basically still does run on the honor system and on trust.</p>
<p>Yes-- but right now ED is set up so that the applicant takes all the risk and the college has none, whether or not the student seeks financial aid. (The full-pay students are still risking the possibility of an unexpected rise in tuition for the following year). This imbalance is one of several reasons that such a contract would be seen as too one-sided and invalidated by the courts.</p>
<p>I’m saying that the financial risk should be shifted so that it is more equitable. The 2008 tax returns are good evidence of whether the estimated income for the 2009 is reasonable – it would protect against fraud in most cases. If a family says they expect to earn $50K in 2009, then the 2008 taxes will give a sense of whether that is reasonable. That is, if they also earned $50K in 2008, its a fair estimate, if they earned $120K in 2008, then it might raise a red flag and cause the college to ask more questions.</p>
<p>I think the college could still set up contingencies on the financial aid award, but in that case they should extend out the time that the student needs to commit – essentially waiving the binding nature of ED while the financial details are worked out. Or the family could meet with the financial aid department to discuss their situation and come to terms. </p>
<p>The worst case scenario is that for the freshman year, the college ends up giving a student a larger grant than they are entitled to in a purely need-based environment. But that doesn’t hurt the ED school any more than it hurts some other school to give merit money to desirable students --and if the college is unsure they could defer admission rather than accept the student. </p>
<p>Basically, the risk shifting would slightly change the economics of the ED system for the college – it might require them to adjust the way the look at ED in terms of the number of students they accept by that route each year – but I don’t think it would end up being a very large hit on the college budget.</p>