decline an early decision acceptance offer?

Parents Forum
461

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<p>I don’t see how any contract could be legally valid if it is missing an essential term – in this case the price of the commodity being offered.</p>

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<p>Penn’s advising other schools of its ED admit list is not a contractual remedy – it is just an action that it can take on its own. You might see the ED application as something that would bar the OP from suing Penn for releasing that information – though I don’t know if there is a specific waiver written into the ED app. (If not, its still possible that the an ED admittee could sue for the release of that information, perhaps under FERPA – but I’d have to research to see whether the names of admitted students is the sort of information protected by FERPA)</p>

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Highly unlikely that Penn would consider the parents refusal to pay – they don’t do that for any other financial aid applicants. Their whole financial aid system is structured on determining aid from parental assets and income, and not what is actually available to the students.</p>

462

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<p>I think all non-rolling-admissions colleges should get rid of all early decision and early action programs. Make the kids wait until the spring, like we all had to do in the dark ages!</p>

463

<p>I don’t have any problem with EA – I do think that ED really is inappropriate for a number of reasons and would be happy to see it done away with. Again, the colleges have all of the benefit and none of the risk - the only thing a student gets is a possibility of improved chances at admission, but that is also questionable. (When you knock out all of the hooked candidates who apply during the ED round, and factor in the likelihood of a higher qualified, self-selecting ED applicant pool, its not so clear that the admission chances are all that different in the RD round. )</p>

<p>It seems to me that ED is a way of skirting the uniform May 1st response date set by NACAC.</p>

464

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<p>EXACTLY, Calmom!! Kids see 30% chance of acceptance in the early round and 15% overall acceptance and figure that they have a 2 times greater chance of getting in if they apply early. But the early round is often chock full of special groups that skew the numbers.</p>

465

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Exactly. My son didn’t apply ED, because we needed to be able to compare finaid offers. The OP is attempting to compare finaid offers after she applied ED, and that is simply not right. I can’t understand why people are defending her!</p>

466

<p>I think it’s not so much a matter as defending her and more a matter of illuminating the inconsistencies and vagaries of the ED system from the consumer perspective. Those same things that cause some of us to say to ourselves “wait a minute” and advise our kids not to “use” ED as an option.</p>

467

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The inconsistencies and vagaries that cause students like the OP to game the system. It will surely be interesting to see what happens with her MIT EA application. I think she is nervous now; has been back to CC as late as yesterday afternoon, but doesn’t post anymore…</p>

468

<p>Sorry. I haven’t read the entire thread as I usually do, but we needed financial aid and applied ED. We spoke to admissions offers and FA folk before applying ED and they all assured me that financial concerns WERE a legitimate reason to withdraw an ED application, so in their minds in was okay to apply ED and then withdraw for FA reasons. According to them, it was rare that people do, but not unheard of.</p>

<p>In all fairness to those are who upset by this, we would NOT have withdrawn for a full-ride from a state school because we did not expect a full-ride, and I expected the ED school would still be more expensive than the state school. It was when one was in school; not when two were in school at the same time.</p>

<p>We went into it expecting to honor D’s ED commitment if there was any humanly way we could. If money had been our driving concern we WOULD NOT have applied ED.</p>

<p>That said, I completely understood the ins-and-outs of the system. Other may not understand the nuances quite as well.</p>

<p>Both kids were deferred from ED school so the situation became moot. DD was accepted RD and attended, even though it was NOT the least expensive option. DS was ultimately rejected but accepted to a school with similar finances (probably package not as good) but very appealing school to him.</p>

<p>So, we would NOT have withdrawn in circumstances OP presents. However, we had it in writing from both schools that we could if finances forced us to. We did that for the benefit of high school GC who understood that we needed FA and was not comfortable with us applying ED unless we had assurances we could withdraw. Had we not had those, I don’t think we would have been able to apply ED. Just too big a risk.</p>

<p>Many schools do not like the implication that ED is a way for them to get around the “need-blind” aspects of their admissions process, so the schools actually encouraged us to apply ED even though we did need some FA.</p>

469

<p>Wow! This thread has gotten long. I can see where the OP is coming from. I sat with my S in an admissions presentation recently (not a top 20 school) where the school rep clearly said - if you apply ED and don’t like the financial aid offer, you can decline the ED admission. Having ben around CC for a few years, I was surprised. This was from an employee of the school.</p>

470

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That is typically what they say, which is why I feel it is fully appropriate for the OP to withdraw now that she has a better financial option. </p>

<p>I did not allow my children to apply ED, not because it leaves no options, but because it forces an early choice with a dearth of information. It happened that the school where my daughter might have considered ED also ended up being the school that offered the best financial aid in the RD round – but there would have been no way to know that in December, and the financial aid still left us paying a scary-high amount. In other words, presented with that offer and nothing else… I would have wanted to see more, and without more would have been inclined to turn it down. But once the ED applicant turns the offer down – there is no going back. </p>

<p>However, foregoing ED may have hurt my son. The school that was his clear first choice promised to meet full need for all ED students, but they did not promise that for the RD round. He got in RD, they found him eligible for financial aid, but claimed their budget was exhausted and offered nothing but loans-- so he had to turn them down. His 2nd choice school offered very generous aid – and of course I have no way of knowing whether school #1’s offer would have even been in the same league. With both kids I saw huge differences in offers, with about a $9,000 differential in out-of-pocket cost between the lowest and highest. </p>

<p>So no matter how you cut it, ED is a rich person’s game. There simply is not enough information for a financially needy person to make a decision. </p>

<p>But at the same time I can attest to the fact that there is tremendous pressure put on young, financially needy people to apply ED. My daughter’s college seemed like a tremendous reach - it seemed at the time like ED might be her only chance of admission – though in that case the pressure did not come from the college. But my son’s college pretty much put the squeeze on with its policies-- pretty much a lose-lose situation in a setting where we had no clue how much aid we might qualify for.</p>

471

<p>“Here’s a question, since we’re talking ethics and not really the OP, at this point, does anyone else find it unethical that colleges claim to “meet full need” when they do not, in fact, “meet full need.” Does anyone find it unethical that colleges who say they “meet full need” include student LOANS in that package?”</p>

<p>YES!!</p>

<p>"And Northstarmom’s last post is another reason why students should be allowed to get out of ED. </p>

<p>Meets Full Need
Like other Ivy League universities, Penn does not offer aid based on academic or athletic merit. Aid is based solely on financial need, and Penn is committed to meeting 100% of a student’s determined need. Whether it is $5,000 or $50,000, Penn will find a source to cover it. </p>

<p>No Loans
Penn will not expect dependent students to borrow student loans to meet their academic year financial need."
You Can Afford Penn</p>

<p>"</p>

<p>The University’s need-blind admissions policy ensures that no U.S. citizen or permanent resident is denied admission because he or she requires financial assistance. Penn will meet 100% of a student’s demonstrated financial need.</p>

<p>Who is eligible?</p>

<p>There is no arbitrary income cut-off for financial aid eligibility. Because each family situation is different and financial aid eligibility is determined by many factors, we encourage you to apply if you are concerned about your ability to pay.</p>

<p>How is financial need determined?</p>

<p>Financial aid at Penn is awarded on the basis of financial need as determined by Student Financial Services. Financial need is the difference between Penn’s Educational Expense Budget and the amount your family is expected to contribute:"</p>

<p>STUDENT FINANCIAL SERVICES are not the definitive source on whether a family can really afford a school.</p>

<p>And posts #468 and posts # 469 show there is no ethical dilemma.</p>

<p>You can get out of ED for financial reasons. </p>

<p>It would be immoral to force somebody to pay more than they can afford because of ED.</p>

472

<p>I haven’t read the whole thread but i am going to just put it out there.</p>

<p>There is an expectation that families have done their due diligence regarding the finances before they apply ED because Early Decision is based on the premise that in exchange for an early admission if accepted you will attend. The OP and her family could have looked at financial aid calculators, on the college board using both the federal and inistitutional methodology. They could have even called the Penn FA office and asked for an early read regarding their financial situation.</p>

<p>Unless the family hit the lottery between application and decision time, they know what their financial situation is as far as taking on debt and whether or not they want to do so. Since Penn meets 100% of their demonstrated need (as the school deems the need), if the parents are going to take on debt, the debt would be in the form of perhaps borrowing to meet the EFC. Even then, there are enough financial aid calculators out there to give them a ball park figure. </p>

<p>For example, if the family knows that their EFC is going to be 20,000 just based on the federal methodology, and this number is likely to be higher on the institutional methodology, then they should say, we don’t have $20,000 minimum to pay for school out of pocket and we don’t want to borrow. If you need to know how much you are going to get from a school before making a decision, that is what RD is for and thousands of families make this decsion every year. There is no shame in telling your kids that we have to see what the money looks like. </p>

<p>Early Decision works best for students who have done lots of research and have clear reasons for their choice. It looks like this student and her family did not do their due diligence and Penn is clearly not her first choice.</p>

<p>FYI, none of the Ives, Stanford, MIT or schools with similar FA policies are “going to pay the whole thing” because they all require student contributions from summer earnings each year. Op may just find that MIT will also come up with a package that is not a financially feasible option for her family.</p>

473

<p>Northstarmom post #351 hit the nail on the head. Having worked with hundreds of Asians I could tell you that the parents know what is going on. In my experience even with the language difficulties Asian parents will read everything there is to read on a subject that concerns their children. Asian parents all know about ED and the implications, and they also know what they want for their children. There are specific groups that this holds true for more than others. Many people believe that because people do not speak the English language like a native American than they are unfamilar with American ways or concepts. This could not be further than the truth. </p>

<p>I also agree with the poster that said that Asian families know “it takes a village to raise a child”. Asian parents will seek out all the help they can find to get their children in the “right” position for the schools they wish to see them attend. </p>

<p>The poster who said that it is very easy to claim that the parents have not attended college because the parents medical degrees do not allow them to practice in the U.S is correct. I have seen this many times. It is a sad little know fact that has been kept very quiet. My daughter had an Asian friend in highschool that moved to the U.S with her mom when she was a fresh in H.S. The kid often referred to her dad the surgeon back home. It was always clear that one day her mom would return to said home country but for the time being she wanted her daughter educated in the U.S. This girls mom was a doctor and worked as a clerk in the grocery store. They rented an apartment and drove a used car. One day, right before the aplications were being submitted my daughter came home and said I cant believe -----father passed away in ---- and I just spent two days with her and she never said a word. My daughters friend who spoke of her dad and her mom in the most loving way, never even left school to attend the supposed funeral. It was all very strange, and my daughter understanding the culture, did not ask any questions thinking that it would be inappropriate. As it turned out, the girl received a full need based ride to a top school. She traveled through Europe with her mom and aunt the summer before she left for school and she shopped till she dropped right up until she left. My daughter could not understand how she was affording the top of the line laptop, blackberry, and other expensive items on her mothers meager wages. The girl is currently a soph and wrote all of her friends and told them that she would not be returning home because her mom moved back to their country. Another friend told my daughter that it was getting too hard for her mom to be seperated from the father for so long.
The strange part of this whole story is that everyone knew that they were pulling a scam yet it seems like they got away with it. This girl had everyone at school believe that her father passed away and now they were living on the wages of her moms work in the grocery store.
I still can’t believe how people live with themselves and I guess I never will. I see this type of thing all the time and the thing that bothers me about this is the fact that this is money that should be used for deserving students that trully need the money. </p>

<p>I just hope for those people that believe the OP and her parents did not understand what they were getting into can believe that it takes savy parents and children to get kids into these type of schools. That is not to say the children do not work hard…they do, but to navigate the system of admissions as a foreigner is not an easy task. The Asian parents for the most part are better at this than most any American parent. This is because they value education more than most and they see education as the only way to rise above the poverty that they saw growing up in their own countries. They also value what their childs’ education brings to the family and to their own future. The Asian culture is one of deep respect to the elders and every child knows that as their parents get older they will be financially responsible if their parents need them to be.</p>

<p>I still believe that in the OPs case, if she continues with her greed she will get hers. This type of thing is really unexcusable, and I have no respect for this kind of behavior. It really bugs me that another kid was deferred or rejected because this kid got the spot.</p>

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<p>"How is financial need determined?</p>

<p>Financial aid at Penn is awarded on the basis of financial need as determined by Student Financial Services. Financial need is the difference between Penn’s Educational Expense Budget and the amount your family is expected to contribute:"</p>

<p>Now…</p>

<p>This</p>

<p>“Financial aid at Penn is awarded on the basis of financial need as determined by Student Financial Services. Financial need is the difference between Penn’s Educational Expense Budget and the amount your family is expected to contribute:”</p>

<p>Does not necessarily equal this…</p>

<p>What a family can actually afford…</p>

<p>Also…the family doesn’t know what this means </p>

<p>“Financial aid at Penn is awarded on the basis of financial need as determined by Student Financial Services. Financial need is the difference between Penn’s Educational Expense Budget and the amount your family is expected to contribute:”</p>

<p>In actual costs…</p>

<p>Which is why a family can opt out.</p>

475

<p>Being Jewish and having been both poor and a first generation college student (though my parents were native born and could have but didn’t go to college), I have to object to both post #351 and #473 as making prejudicial assumptions about the OP because she’s Asian. I don’t think racial or ethnic stereotyping has any place here or in College Admissions in general, and I am a living testament that it’s possible to have parents that are clueless to the subtleties of college admissions despite having an ethnic background that is stereotypically assumed to be savvy. It didn’t stop me from going to MIT.</p>

476

<p>Posts #351 and #473 are racist.</p>

477

<p>ROTFL, Yes and a young seventeen year old reads “Penn will give me all the money I need that my parents can’t afford.” A parent would read that and say “not a chance am I agreeing to that.” Personally, I could have enough money to burn it for fun and never agree to something for which I didn’t know the cost. As the movie says “show me the money.” The closest thing ED compares to is a non-binding bid system or an agreement to agree nothing more in my opinion.</p>

478

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Did the girl get all this finaid as an international student? Or did she become an American citizen?</p>

479

<p>The ethnicity–which we don’t even know–of the OP has exactly NOTHING to do with the issues.</p>

<p>The thing that bugs me the most about CC, and has since I first wandered onto this site, is the blatant stereotyping of “Asians” by many posters, including some of those who have been around here the longest.</p>

<p>Asia is a big place, a varied place. The backgrounds of immigrants and subsequent generations are all over the place. Much of all immigrants’ interests, activities and attitudes depends on what part of this big country they live in.</p>

<p>H and I have lived and worked in university settings non-stop since 1970. We’ve known a lot of academic Asians/Asian Americans, from many countries. Even among these groups, who are all highly educated, there is huge variation, just as there is among European immigrants. When you consider that many of the students applying to college are not from the highly-educated sector, the variation is far larger.</p>

<p>My son’s longtime girlfriend is an immigrant from a tiny Asian country that perhaps not a single one of the posters on CC has ever been to or knows anything about, yet many would have no hesitation about making assumptions about her and her family.</p>

<p>I’ve made enemies on CC on this issue, but I"m going to request, again, that people stop with the stereotyping.</p>

480

<p>As of yesterday, OP had 15 posts on CC, four of which were in the MIT forum. Now all of those posts have been removed (search her name for posts). Why?</p>

<p>Yesterday evening a poster posted that RedBlueBeaver had been accepted ED to UPenn in a MIT thread that RedBlueBeaver had already posted in.</p>

<p>Did the OP ask that the MIT posts be removed? Why would a moderator agree? </p>

<p>OP has been on this site as recently as 8:12 a.m. today, so I think she is running scared, and trying to cover up her tracks in the MIT forum about what she did. If she believes she did no wrong, then why did she get her posts removed? (I’m assuming that she did this, and that it wasn’t another poster who requested removal of her posts.)</p>