I don’t think that’s in doubt here.
But it sounds like the fundamental question specific to the topic at hand (read: the WVU cuts) that’s been danced around in this discussion but never really fully wrestled with is: What is the role (or function?) of a state flagship?
And does the role of a state flagship have to be the same across all 50 states- i.e. New York (medium sized geographically but with several places of dense population) and Rhode Island and Alaska-- must every state flagship have the same mission? I would argue not. Others disagree. I think society loses out when kids get tracked, side-tracked, or just “never on the track” academically based on where they live. But I don’t think that means that all 50 states must offer doctoral level courses in ethnomusicology or Akkadian/Sumerian… or even undergrad majors in those areas. As long as there is a mechanism (clearly beyond Pell) to fund a kid in rural Illinois or Minnesota to be able to afford to study those subjects somewhere-- their own state, a neighboring state, outside the region.
I would like to see more reciprocity agreements, like the WV-Ohio one. Why can’t Maine, another small state with declining college demographics, partner with NH, VT, RI, to offer reciprocity and those states could offer different courses of study. States with small populations to begin with and an aging population should expect to become more efficient in their offerings by partnering with neighboring states.
I see what you’re getting at here, but as phrased isn’t this rather a strawman? What you’re describing isn’t the case now, nor has it ever been.
There are GIANT billboards on the major interstate highway that runs through CT touting the reciprocity arrangements with U Maine. It is not a coincidence that the current president/chancellor of the Maine University system is a former governor of CT…
I’m suggesting that it is less expensive- and likely higher quality/better outcomes-- for the citizens of WV to offer a subsidy to their citizens to study out of state if it is a subject that their own flagship doesn’t offer.
And it has never been this way because up until now, most states have used the strategy of “all things to all people”-- which of course, was NEVER realized since many middle class/disadvantaged kids could never afford to study at the flagship since room/board put the price tag out of reach. I’m offering a solution, not presenting a strawman.
Good to know. I am heartened to hear Maine is doing this already!
No, no, I’m saying that being hyperbolic by presenting as the alternative all 50 states offering “doctoral level courses in ethnomusicology or Akkadian/Sumerian… or even undergrad majors in those areas” is building a strawman (and also a false binary, FTM). When you present your position as standing in opposition to an absurd reality that isn’t, in fact, what it’s in opposition to, that’s a strawman.
Fine, then offering Japanese language study at WVU is perhaps a better example of a less than cost effective approach. The handful of Japanese language students can continue their study at Ohio.
I had a friend who was the one and only Egyptology major his year. It was a private U, and for a lot of reasons (faculty who were collaborating with colleagues around the world and collaborating with colleagues across the street in the Classics, Antiquity, and Religious Studies departments plus Art History down the block) it made sense. It didn’t matter if there were one, two, three or zero students in any particular year. The faculty had named, endowed chairs; the affiliations with museums and scholars around the world were decades old; it likely cost the university heat and air conditioning for the building the department used as its headquarters (also named and endowed btw). Every other year a doctoral student would show up, and every other year a research grant showed up, and the small but mighty team would end up in London or Cairo or Jerusalem or Athens to present at a conference.
This of course is a luxury that many public universities do not have-- to maintain an “under the radar” department which generates its own funds, produces its own intellectual content plus works with more “popular” majors on their own research. And does not have to answer to taxpayers as to why there is no nursing major (which there was not) but an Egyptology major.
The answer for WVU and for other, declining population states, is surely not to behave MORE like a well endowed private institution- but to figure out how to serve its own citizens in the best way that it can.
I went to a public university and was a humanities major. There were only a small handful of us, but the humanities department served as vital curriculum for the international business students, which were plentiful. It was a good symbiotic relationship.
Exactly. Private schools can spend their money as they wish; public schools are accountable to the public. Rather than lament cutting the WVU Italian dept, one better inquire as to why so few wish to study Italian right now. Given that cuts had to be made, distributing those cuts to affect the fewest number of majors was a rational method.
FWIW, the Romance language dept at Princeton ( never worried about its existence) started a robust internship program with companies abroad to place its students there. Seems to work well.
Whatever the taxpayers/voters in that state want it to be.
(To me, I’d rather the flagship be affordable for instate residents as opposed to offering a course covering all of “human knowledge”.)
That is, in all seriousness, depressing.
There are states in which (a majority of) the taxpayers appear to want public universities, including the flagship, to function as pipelines into wage work, full stop.
The concept of a modern university is centered in following knowledge wherever it leads, however. One would think that allowing that even for students who require subsidized tuition to pursue it would be a positive social good, you know?
I remind everyone: The foreign language programs at WVU made money for the university. They were a net budget positive. Given that we’re discussing cuts made in the name of reducing a budget deficit, if WVU wanted to do what it was claiming to do, it should have kept the foreign languages.
Also, who cares how many majors a particular program has! It is entirely possible for a program to serve the needs of a lot of students while not having a lot of majors. The willingness of so many people here to accept the metrics WVU is putting forward without questioning whether they’re actually good or even sensible metrics is, quite seriously, astonishing to me.
Well, they could have chosen to cut the most expensive programs ( likely the medical and nursing schools) but like every other state they want to increase the number of health care professionals in state. Engineering could be expensive to provide, but likely bothbrings in some grant money and fills a need for state engineers.
Even assuming your criteria of how many students are enrolled ( versus major) in a course, the relevant question is how many students want to take the course voluntarily? If the answer is close to none, then the school needs to think hard about whether that course should really be required-many colleges do not require FL study to graduate. Whether they should can be debated, but obviously many mid-tier ( and some high-tier) schools no longer believe it is essential, at least not for all majors. WVU offers alternatives for those wishing to pursue FL.
I have yet to see any evidence the FL department anywhere “makes money” for any school but am open to data.
I think what is happening in Florida to both K-12 AND higher ed is depressing and infuriating. But I don’t vote or pay taxes in Florida, so I don’t have standing. I think what is happening in Oklahoma is absolutely insane. But ditto. And if the voters/taxpayers there think that some no-nothing in state government knows more about the needs of students in Tulsa than a highly regarded team of professional educators who are trying to fix an under-funded and under-resourced public educational system- then the voters/taxpayers get to do that.
Stupid stuff happens in my state? I know who to call. Sometimes there’s even a hotline to handle the huge volume of outraged citizens- and stuff quietly gets repealed/fixed/nullified/changed. Or we vote the idiots out of office.
But I can disagree with West Virginia becoming a pipeline into wage work on a philosophical level (and I do) but also concede the reality- that in a poor state that has relied on dirty, dangerous, environmentally unsustainable industries for a long time-- it’s not far-fetched to think that the voters/taxpayers aren’t going to agree with my humanistic views on higher ed.
I recommend to all reading the actual Provost report, which includes the formal review and suggestions of each department as to changes it needs, and the preliminary conclusions as to which suggestions to accept.
The School of Education, for example, successfully argued for dropping most of its masters and doctoral programs but continuing its undergrad major; this plan was accepted.
The report notes the FL dept proposed decreasing from 24 to 13.5 faculty positions but did not provide effective data analysis. The budget for FL was $5.8 million.
Regarding tuition reciprocity agreements between neighboring states… do they typically include sufficient financial aid to make the reciprocity school affordable to students who would normally be financially limited to commuting to a local in-state public university?
Just noting that in contrast to the FL dept, the women’s/gender studies dept apparently made strong arguments, engaged in solid data analysis supporting its net revenue to the school and proposed meaningful administrative cost cutting measures, all of which were accepted. Seems like that dept knew what it was doing