Deferred by 2 LACs -- could it be grade point average?

Applying to College
1

Hi all. I’ve been lurking on this wonderful site for ages. Now I guess I’ll post.

My son would like to be a classics major at northeast liberal arts college.

He has been deferred by Williams ED1 and just today by Middlebury ED2. So for both schools he goes into the RD pool, though I gather his chances for admission from point are not great.

The other schools he’s applied to are: Binghamton(accepted), Hamilton, Amherst, Vassar, Haverford, Swarthmore, Bowdoin, Bates and Colby. He has visited all except Binghamton and interviewed at all except Amherst. Some of these schools are as hard or harder to get into than his first two choices so I’m not terribly optimistic on them.

In terms of his application strength:

I don’t think his test scores are holding him back: SAT: 780V,680M,760W, which comes out to 2220/1460 and 780s on his two SAT subject tests (English and World History). He’s had 4 APs with an average of 4. Not awful, but obviously could be more competitive there. He’s always taken the heaviest load his high school has to offer but his grade point average has been lower than it should be for a kid who’s as bright as he is. His first 2 years of high school were the rockiest, with an average of about 92. Junior year was pretty strong and with a heavy load; he ended up with something above a 97. This brought his first 3 years average to 94.5, with a rank of 15/300 which just put him in the top 5%. But the school is somewhat urban and I suspect the high school profile doesn’t help his case.

Senior year has been tough so far. He’s taking 3 more APs (including Calc and Physics, though he’s not a math or science kid – that’s largely what’s pull his GPA down all along) and is in a intensive college prep program. That program, which takes him out of the high school every morning, is a small collection of high school seniors from the extended area around us and focuses on US government, law, economics, english and history. They do a lot of public speaking and the work load is immense. The teacher (he runs the whole show) is by far the toughest grader I have ever seen and is largely insensitive to the fact that these kids are all applying to highly competitive schools. This makes the fact that the program is excellent preparation for college a bit ironic. Good life lesson, I guess. Anyway, he’s been back down in the 92-93 region for the first half of senior year.

So I’m anticipating that the mid-year cumulative GPA that’s getting sent out to schools next week is going to be in vicinity of 94. His EC’s are pretty extensive if a bit average by today’s standards: lots of soccer/team captain; piano since he was 6/lots of recitals; master minds all-star/team captian; some volunteer work related to his interests; honor societies; etc.

Any impressions or advice are welcome.

Thanks.

2

Your S has similar stats and ECs to my D2 (she also has that 100 point dip in the math part of the SAT) His advantage at these LACs is his sex. If you look at the common data sets the number of applications and the percentage accepted are more favorable for boys. So my point is that while they all are highly selective, looking at the average acceptance rate underestimates chances for your S.

3

Under 700 on Sat math (or any sat section) is going to make it difficult at many of those schools, very low odds for an unhooked.

4

Your son is a solid candidate for all these schools. While ED can provide a boost, in the case of a very small school like Williams that boost can be small for a non hooked applicant. Williams likely takes 200-225 kids early. A big portion of that group will be recruited athletes. For a larger school, they make take the same number of athletes early, but there is more room for non hooked kids.
If his recs and essays are good, your son should have an excellent chance at Hamilton, Colby and Bates and the others are reasonable as well.

5

@8bagels. At many of those schools well over half of enrolled students score below 700 on the math section.

6

In my view a male with those scores, a top 5% rank, and good ECs will have good LAC options. Good luck!

7

Except for Binghamton, getting accepted to the others is just a matter of chance because they have a pretty tight distribution of grades and test scores, as well as flaky geographical, gender and subjective factors that are part of the decision.

Gender-wise, Vassar looks pretty darn good. He has SATs above average and the acceptance rate for males was 35% last year.

I think when you choose this group of schools you need to be prepared to go where you get accepted. That’s just the way it is.

Side note, these schools are starting to see more international applications and some other demographics so I would bet they all have big growth in applications from last year.

Where are you from by the way, that could be a reason. NJ, Mass, CT?

8

Thanks for all the replies.

The 680M is a bit of a concern but it’s often toward the 50%-ile range and my S is an intended classics major. Don’t know if that counts for much or the fact that most classics departments at these schools turn out fewer graduates than there are faculty members. But we’re hoping so. That said, my S would surely be disadvantaged compared to a student with otherwise equal credentials but a higher math score.

Good point about the gender split. We’ve been aware of this. It’s especially pronounced at Vassar. Another thing about Vassar: they were the only school to offer the option of uploading a photo. Sets one’s mind to wondering.

9

There’s a bit of a mix in those schools. Although they are all difficult, Amherst, Swat, Williams and Bowdoin (even though that’s test optional) and maybe a couple of the others are a high reach for those stats, unhooked and middle of the road ECs. IMO an unhooked, non URM with a sub 700 on any SAT section has very little chance at Am, Swat and Williams. At those school, IMO, his test scores are going to hold him back a bit. You really want to be toward the 75%-ile range if you’re unhooked.

I think he has an average shot at most of the others. All the numbers and EC as a whole are of course great for just about any school in the country, but you have a fairly aggressive list of schools there. I do agree about Vassar, that’s his best shot from that list.

10

He sounds like a strong candidate, but that’s a heavy proportion of reachy schools. Will he be happy at Binghamton if it comes to that? (If the answer is yes, wonderful, but hard to know if he hasn’t visited.)

I think the most important thing right now is to make sure he’ll be happy at the school he’s been admitted to, or scare up a few more safeties in the next week or so (there’s a separate thread here with schools still taking applications) so he has some options if things don’t go his way.

11

Agree with the Vassar comments. A male with those stats has a great shot as long as recs and essays are good.
Keep us posted and good luck!

12

Great handle, ScaredNJDad1. So appropriate for so many of us. We’re from NY, which doesn’t help. Williams also has two kids from my son’s high school already there. I don’t know how wide-spread it is, but I’ve heard that’s an additional concern of these schools – sort of a micro demographic.

Here’s a case in point. My son did an ID clinic for soccer at Hamilton last summer. At the lunch break the coach gave an overview of program. In talking about the interactions between the athletics department and admissions he said he once had a top recruit who had a 35 ACT and a 98 average get a pre-read by admissions that came back: you’ll have to use one of your ‘helps’ for this kid. When the coach enquired as to why, he was told that Hamilton already had two (or more) kids from the same high school as the recruited kid and they really didn’t want another. Seems foolish, but I guess there’s such a thing as an anti-hook.

13

The 50th percentile for math at Williams is 720 – my guess is that his math score hurt him there. Doesn’t matter that he is a classics major – they are still looking for string scores across the board. Can’t tell what happened at Midd, it looks like their math midpoint is around 690, so he is just a bit under.

14

wisteria100: My expectations are pretty much in line with yours. My son’s recs are quite strong, I’m sure. He’s a great writer, though how his essays will play at these schools is anybody’s guess.

I have become disillusioned with the ED advantage, not so much because my S was deferred twice, but by everything I’ve heard and read to date. Maybe one of the most telling bits came from the Williams information session we attended last year at which the admissions officer, responding to a question about ED, said there was no admissions advantage and even used the line ‘you can’t game the system.’ But, you know, I’d be more outraged if my son’s GPA were higher. :wink:

15

Well I’m outraged at the “you can’t game the system” comment because so many others from astronomical wealth and privilege do just that.

16

@rjjxv26 Middlebury is also a bit quirky when it comes to who it admits and it has been hard for gc’s to predict or figure out. Midd rejects kids who then get into HYP.
As for ED, at some LACS it can be an advantage, though Williams may not be one of those due to the small size and emphasis on athletics. My D did apply and was accepted ED to a LAC, though not as competitive as Williams and a school where they did say in the info session that ED can give a boost to a qualified candidate.
So don’t fret yet - Williams is a very tough admit for an unhooked kid at ED and Midd is impossible to predict. I bet your S will have good choices come April 1

17

He applied to very, very competitive universities.
His list is almost all reaches due to acceptance rates (anything below 30% is a reach - this is unrelated to an applicant’s academic strength) except perhaps Bates and Colby which are around 25-28%.
You need to help your son find a few “middle level” LACs.
If you’re worried, you may want to have the GC review the application to make sure there’s nothing missing, no red flag, etc.

Your son is interested in LACs and there are still some the application deadlines which haven’t passed (but may be very close!) You’d have to check the strength of the classics major, but look into:
Allegheny
Beloit
Centre
Denison
Dickinson
Drake
Franklin&Marshall
Gettysburg
Grinnell
Hamilton
Hendrix
Ithaca
John Carroll
Kalamazoo
Kenyon
Muhlenberg
Ohio Wesleyan
St Michael’s
Sewanee
St Bonaventure
St Lawrence
St Edward’s
UScranton
Wooster

All of the above are on the common app and not all require a supplement, so it may be easy to get a few safety LACs “just in case”, to alleviate stress with minimal work. Since your son only applied to LACs, getting into a few LACs may provide him with a real choice if push comes to shove and it’s Binghamton or another college. You don’t want him with no choice in the Spring.

Since Geneseo doesn’t have Classics,you may want to look into other public LACs.
I know that College of Charleston has classics:
http://classics.cofc.edu/about/index.php

Also worth looking into if the deadlines haven’t passed:
Fairfield
Fordham
Lehigh
Providence
St Louis University

All in all, these two universities are extremely competitive so odds were always even, even for your son (and his GPA is NOT bad at all.)

18

Thanks for the words of encouragement, @wisteria100. Our read on Midd, based on college visits and the CDS preference matrix was that Midd seems to favor extroverts who love to try lots of new things. Indeed, the one kid we know who goes there got in and then promptly took a gap year to go live in Brazil and essentially repeat his senior year of high school while living with host families. Brave. Upon landing on the Middlebury campus after a year of living in Brazil he said he was struck by all the wealth represented in the student body.

And thanks to everybody for your insights. It’s all helpful.

Was nobody too phased by my S’s GPA? Am I off base on that concern?

19

I don’t think it’s a GPA issue. Remember that about one third of all the openings for a small class are taken by recruited athletes. There is a lot of competition for the remaining spots.

One, probably two, maybe three, will come through for him.

20

Here is the thing - the GPA is probably good enough (a little concerning) but those 2 schools are very hard to get into so the difference between accepted students and rejected ones is very hard to predict. Kids are not compared as apples to apples.
Yes - he got deferred from 2 very top schools - that is likely to happen - that is why he applied to a variety of schools that he would be happy to attend - right?