<p>Hey eveyone....new here.....quick question from a nervous nelly new parent:</p>
<p>Is there a list of the infractions and their associated demerit value for Kings Point posted somwhere?</p>
<p>Also, how many demerits does it take to be on the Mast list?</p>
<p>Thanks!</p>
<p>There are three levels of infractions, Classes 1-3</p>
<p>a Class III is the lightest infraction and is a 16 demerits and (I think) one or two weeks restriction.
a Class II is more serious and is 50 demerits and 6 weeks restriction.
a Class I is the most serious and (for the most part) requires an investigation and that is 100 demerits and 12 weeks restriction.</p>
<p>That being said, there is technically a list of smaller infractions that give minor demerit points, however that generally does not apply anymore due to the softening of the school. Also on that note, people can get stuck (put on the mast list) for almost anything depending on who is sticking them.</p>
<p>However, plebes generally (excluding the case of a very serious infraction) do not get stuck. The are in a learning stage and punishment is usually delivered by the CTO in the form of IT (Instructive Training i.e. pushups)</p>
<p>If your S/D is getting stuck, it means their training command is not doing its job, they committed a serious infraction or… PARENTS ARE COMPLAINING TO MUCH ABOUT PUNISHMENT, THUS HAMSTRINGING THE TRAINING PROCESS.
That was a problem last year.</p>
<p>Plebe Candidate we know was put on Mast List…we were trying to find out the details…just got word it was a misunderstanding/timing/learning issue… PC had to go explain and provide evidence, after being heard, the PC was not “convicted” of the wrongdoing…no consequences…basically found “not guilty” I guess???</p>
<p>314…
it’s worse this year than it was last year. to the point where they can’t call it tattoo anymore, because that sounds too harsh. and they ARE sticking plebe candidates as a two-fold result of past faux pas. one–people complained about the IT… so they did away with that. and two–the result of having no legitimate form of discipline for the plebes last year lead to less than desireable outcomes… so with no IT, they have to do something.</p>
<p>I’ve seen a couple of posts from current mids about the doing away with IT, etc and the cting of “last year” as a reason. As a older graduate I can give you a bunch of other reasons to do away with IT - and they are all realated to the same reason that KP was the only Federal Academy with IT as an option the last couple of years.</p>
<p>First I will tell you that when I went to the Academy 1978 - 1982 we didn’t have IT as a policy or option. We were being trained to be professionals and officers and it wasn’t felt to be appropriate after Indoc - your four years at an Academy are NOT meant to be a four year long enlisted Boot Camp. The Regimental program is meant to teach you leadership. I will tell you from what I saw last year as a parent and an alum, the leadership skills and development of many, not all, but too many, of the Class of 2009 were suspect or lacking. To be sure many of the grads are solid leaders and have learned good skills, sadly several of the ones I met that I felt were likely to be the best leaders had after their stay at the Academy been very turned off and were non-participants whenever possible to the regimental program.</p>
<p>On the other hand you had a first rotation regimatnal commander who, for personal reasons was a set back; I saw a CTO who later became a CC second rotation send email instructions to PCs with an attempt to bully them and using off color langauge. I could go on, my point is that IF there were issues with the PCs of 2012 relative to the sort of stuff you guys are talking about, much of it is a reflection of the quality of leadership from the First Class last year - BTW it’s always been that way, just as the Class of 1979 served as role models (good and bad) for myself and my Classmates from 1982 and the Class of 2007 did for the current first class.</p>
<p>From my perspective as a graduate and active almuni, I think IT is overly reflective of a trade school/enlisted training regimine that is inappropriate for use at a Service Academy after indoctrination. The idea you are learning the regimantal system for that entire first year and beyond so push-ups are appropriate punishment in Lieu of Demerits and Mast for Class III infractions seems a foolish idea to me. </p>
<p>As officers and leaders you need to learn accountability and to understand your decisions with regard to not following rules, etc. have real repercussions. I believe that idea is far better instilled in you by repetedly leading by example, telling you what values and conduct are expected of you , and then holding you clearly accountable with something more lasting relative to making an impression on you then going outside and making you do a 100 push-ups. IT, truth be told is akin to “spanking” a child (not beating them but spanking them) - at first it might scare them but they quickly realize the punishment is quick, annd frankly easy. By October, most PCs from the current Classes of 2010, 2011, and 2012 could crank out 100 push-ups without breaking a sweat. Not bad training for a USMC or Special Ops guy but as far as understanding that even though you might show up for bridge watch post graduation on a wet ship on time and sober but overly tired from some prior activity, might be legal, it isn’t professional conduct or reflective of a level of professionalism you should — it really won’t help you grow.</p>
<p>Demerits for Class III infractions and restriction when you accrue too many demerits over a period of time on the other hand and you’ll actually be getting treated more like adults and professionals and over time you’ll learn to hold yourself first and foremost accountable for your own actions. </p>
<p>Also, the idea that the prior Superintendent felt for numerous reason he should give Midshipment found guilty of honor code violations setbacks or a second chance when the honor board recommended dismissal in the past. Sorry, I don’t get that. If there was reason to believe the honor board wasn’t functioning properly and couldn’t be relied upon to be self policing in 99.99999% of the time - then you guys need to be looking inward and raising the standards of everything across the board on things far greater than acting like you think the Class of 2012 got away with anything and the Class of 2013 is having it easy because of the current review and restrictions on IT. I’ll sound like a real old fart here but “back in the days I was at KP” if you commited an honor board violation and were found guilty, you knew what the pounishment was going to be - no matter who you were or what class you were in.</p>
<p>I may question some of the changes myself but I applaud the motivation for them and agree some areas that are being looked at and addressed are long over due for review and reconsideration.</p>
<p>The idea that parents of PCs can make a fuss and that gets reflected or was reflected in how the prior classes of PCs were and are treated just doesn’t fly with me. The issues were and are a function of things going on inside the gate with both the PCs, upperclass, first class and Commandant’s Staff. And for the most part from what I see the Commandant and his staff are trying to raise the standards across the board and instill more professionalism to the regimental program.</p>
<p>Sorry for the ramble guys (especially current members of the regiment), I know after going through your own PC experience each of us feel strongly about the “right way” those things ought to be done, this is just my 2 cents.</p>
<p>jasperdog, you bring up several very good points, and I agree with you on the majority of them, including that IT is not the best punishment and that we should rely more on the regimental punishment system. However, it is currently so full of holes, exacerbated by the lack of initiative by the commissioned officers at the school, the midshipman officers and other upperclassmen.</p>
<p>Many of the commissioned officers will not stick people for various reasons… one current officer had relations with a Plebe when he was a third class, and was not punished because he was looked favorably upon by a certain company officer, and that is just one example of many that happen at KP. Hypocrisy, unfortunately, runs rampant. This cuts both ways however, many will not approach plebes or other midshipmen who are not doing their duties because they had at one point done it themselves, and do not want to appear to be hypocrites themselves.</p>
<p>In addition, the current mentality of midshipmen at the school is clashing between two groups of mids, the “soldiers” and the “sailors.” i.e. the ones who will go military vs. the ones who will sail. Over the past decade, the school has become more and more of a military academy rather than a maritime academy, and the idea of “leadership training” for potential Indoc drill instructors and officers is run by a former marine corps gunnery sergeant who only teaches professional followership. Because of this, many of the midshipman officers have no idea of how to lead or train plebes outside of loud voices and pushups. And because of the “sailors” disgust with what is happening to the regiment, they believe the purpose of the school is not to train maritime leaders, but just sailors. Anyone who has sailed on a merchant ship realizes that the definition of what is acceptable differs greatly than on land. This causes poor participation on both sides.</p>
<p>As for Admiral Stewart and the honor code, I agree with you 100%. It pained me to see midshipmen get minimal punishment either due to lack of administrative will, or the current jury process (which we tried to have changed, but due to administrative opposition, could not). And this is from someone who actually liked Joey D. However, I do know that the new Supt has said he will follow the Honor Board’s recommendations, and hopefully the honor board is still trying to get changes made to the honor manual.</p>
<p>There are many problems with Kings Point, which is going through a major change, and hopefully at the end, the best will come out of it.</p>
<p>Has anybody at Kings Point thought about instituting “extra duty” (ED) as a punishment for violation of regs? (think of it as performing community service) If its administered correctly it can be an effective tool for enforcing discipline.</p>
<p>When I attended CMA back in the early 70s “extra duty” was often assigned, in lieu of demerits, by cadet mast boards for various infractions of the conduct rules. Customarily it was meted out in one hour increments or by specific task. For the entering class it involved manual labor performed on the training ship. (e.g. slushing cargo gear, scrapping cosmoline off of decks or bulkheads, painting, cleaning bilges or floor plates… etc.) or policing the grounds. It was usually done after 1700 hours weekdays or on the weekends. For first class cadets “extra duty” was supervisory in nature and for the 2nd and 3rd class it was a combination of both hands on and supervisory… sort of like being a “working” bosun on a merchant ship running a deck gang. Anyway, no matter what class you were, “extra duty” was painful, time consuming and universally hated, and it could seriously cut into study time (or worse yet, liberty time, especially on cruise). </p>
<p>Now when I was a very young first year cadet, Ill admit I didnt know a whole lot about, accountability, responsibility, leadership, blah blah blah…yawn
(I would learn more about that later as an upperclassman)
However, what I DID know was that after “being brought up with a round turn” at mast board and then putting in some quality hours with a deck scraper on the bridge deck of the training ship, I had better get my act squared away
because doing “extra duty” wasnt how I wanted to be spending my valuable liberty and study time!
Just my 2 bits FWIW…
If thats the case, the Kings Point PTA needs to back off a point or two… </p>
<p>Labore Pugnare Parati Sumus… DD1</p>
<p>deepdraft - good point, I had assumed extra duty was still part of the demerit, mast and restriction process. When I was at Kings Point there were very few folks who graduated without learning how to use a floor buffer, etc. Also there is no Kings Point PTA - this isn’t a high school we are talking about.</p>
<p>k314 - I too “liked/like” Vice Admiral Stewart, however there were and are clearly some things about the way things moved the last 10 years I didn’t understand or agree with. I truly belive that both Rear Admiral Worley and Captain Fell are trying to move away from the “US Marine Academy” and back toward the US Merchant Marine Academy. I have nothing against someone deciding after they get to KP to go active duty but I must admit I was disappointed this past June when so many of the class of 2009 choose to do so without giving the Maritime Industry a chance. When I graduated in 1982 sailing jobs were tight too, but many in my class stuck it out and after a while went on to get their Chief Engineers or Masters tickets. They have all done very well and the perseverance they learned those first 12 to 24 months after graduation served them well as did their USMMA training.</p>
<p>As for the “the idea of “leadership training” for potential Indoc drill instructors and officers is run by a former marine corps gunnery sergeant who only teaches professional followership” - I’m pretty aware of what you are talking about ref my comment "I saw a CTO who later became a CC second rotation … " and agree with you on that too. Here’s another thought for you “back in my day” - I know of NO setback who ever got more than three stripes as a first classman/midshipman officer. Of course again “back in those days” I don’t believe we ever had more than 10 setbacks in a class and I know of no “double setbacks” who graduated prior to 2002.</p>
<p>All of the above are basically why I feel the sentiment that parents are somehow involved in, influencing or otherwise interfering with the regimental program at the academy as basically pretty ludicrous…</p>
<p>
Well, sometimes I wonder about that after reading some of the posts on here…</p>
<p>Don’t you still work off demerits by doing ‘extra duty’? Or has that too fallen by the wayside. I remember many a midshipmen walking around campus picking up cigarette butts and other menial tasks while I was there.</p>
<p>I’ll leave the discussion about the Company Officers (not midshipmen officers) to a different forum.</p>
<p>i’m in second company and we have 2 kids with class 2 and another 2 with class three. They aren’t joking this year in the past they couldnt stick us but i guess that has changed.</p>
<p>What exactly does IT stand for? Please also define Mast List. Thanks</p>
<p>IT=Incentive Training (usually a rather hard physical work-out to include pushups, etc)
Mast List = a list of the midshipmen who were “stuck” or charged with some infraction of the rules and given demerits. Sometimes people are incorrectly charged and you can fight to get your name removed or a reduced “sentence” by going to ‘mast’ with the appropriate regimental officer.</p>