The interesting thing to me about these apps is they force the participants to both acknowledge that they’re about to have sex. The apps seem silly, but the explicit acknowledgement is probably a good thing.
Emily Joffe has covered campus assaults in Slate and The Atlantic. The definitions of assault have changed a lot it seems since I was in college. Here is a U Mass Amherst case with lots of details.
https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2017/09/the-uncomfortable-truth-about-campus-rape-policy/538974/
There is no way a phone app will change any of this, as the current thinking is that anyone can change their mind at any time, such as the girl at U Mass, which was after she wanted to stop touching her male companion and then she twisted that into an assault on her.
Women seem to be caught up in constant self examination and guilt over sex. Is this our Puritan history or what?
I think it does cause a lot of what I would call false accusations such as the story above in The Atlantic.
Another defensive tactic is for girls to avoid dressing like prostitutes. No, not blaming the victim. And, no, not suggesting giving up freedom for the purpose of avoiding rape. Similar to avoiding alcohol as a defensive strategy, there is no reason to ever drink alcohol in the first place, so there is no freedom lost by avoiding it. Showing everything to the world cheapens the beauty and grace of women in the eyes of everyone, not just predators, so I would always advise my daughter against dressing as such.
I just finished reading all seven pages of this. Some interesting opinions.
I know multiple students who were raped stone cold sober. To give just a couple examples:
A–During first year orientation at a college, a young woman and a young man got to talking about anime. She invited him back to her room to look at some anime stuff she had. And he closed the door and raped her. (The rapist got expelled. Turns out he victimized more than one woman, which helped seal the deal evidence wise.)
B–A young man I know had a roommate. That roommate had a third party male guest visiting him. The male guest raped the young man in the middle of the night.
I recommend to all of you reading the book We Believe You: Survivors of Campus Sexual Assault Speak Out. There is a lot one can learn from reading these first-hand accounts. They supplement the quantitative evidence with which this thread started with qualitative evidence.
And yes, there are stories in that book of male survivors as well, including a young man who got raped by another man in the shower of his dormitory. There are more stories from female survivors, as one would expect, but the book is very inclusive.
I don’t want to live in a world where students are afraid to take showers, or go to sleep if their roommate has a guest, or share their anime collection with a like-minded student. We cannot put all the burden on students to prevent their own rapes. Sure, absolutely, we can and should encourage our students to engage in smart behavior and avoid high-risk situations. But do not deceive yourselves. It’s not like these things just happen to certain kinds of women who drink and dress a certain way. That is a MYTH. And it is a DANGEROUS MYTH.
P.S. I especially dislike the myth that women who dress attractively are “asking for it.” Let’s think about that logic. As anyone who reads the newspapers knows, a handful of Catholic priests raped young boys for years. Were they also dressed “provocatively”? No? That’s an exception? Or maybe it doesn’t really have to do with what the survivor was wearing? Maybe the predator is the problem? So can we let our daughters wear crop tops or body con dresses without acting like anything that happens after that is their own fault?
Or just take the argument one ridiculous step further and just go back to the days when we don’t allow women to be students / make them all go to their own colleges; that way we will know for sure they won’t put themselves in a vulnerable situation (at least on campus). Right.
But the account in the article posted in #101 is appalling! The girl voluntarily used drugs, began to engage in sexual activity, changed her mind, was allowed to leave and some how its the guy’s fault. His life is ruined because she was worried about her reputation at the fraternity house and beyond. How is it that these incidents are treated differently than other crimes? Guilty before proven innocent. The girl is always right? I have 2 daughters and a son but I honestly worry more for him because he’s already guilty in the eyes of society. And girls are predatory too…they just get a pass. What if the boy in that article had filed charges against her for leading him on and then leaving in the middle? Would we presume her guilty given the same set of facts? I doubt it. Personal responsibility. You want to drink and use drugs…probably illegally in most circumstances, then step up and take responsibility for your decisions, actions and consequences.
Also as posted there are “sober” rapes and those also should be treated as crimes and reported to police, evidence gathered, investigations pursued. obtain a restraining order keeping the parties away from each other but treat them the same because until proven guilty both parties are innocent.
Actually, @booklvr, it is also a dangerous myth to pretend that young adults can do whatever they want wrt drinking, drugs, parties, etc, and nothing bad will ever happen to them. Of course these activities raise the likelihood that something bad will happen to them, regardless of whether they are male or female, and as adults they should decide the likelihood and consequences of the risk.
Personally, I always look both ways before entering a pedestrian crosswalk, although legally I should not have to. It is wise for adults to assume responsibility for their own safety and to assume others may not always act properly or legally.
I call this out, because as anyone who reads the newspapers carefully should know, the majority of cases of sexual abuse by Catholic priests involve female, targets, not male, and generally older teens or adults. There certainly have been cases of serial abuse of young boys, but that does not represent the bulk of the historical abuse documented in the Catholic church or any other institution.
My understanding is that there are factions within the church that are trying to cast the series of scandals as a story about homosexuality rather than a story about sexuality and abuse of power. It’s much more convenient to demonize and to purge homosexuals than to address all people who abuse power and position.
A more accurate description of roethlisberger’s favorite chart in the study is that men in college admit that they have committed sexual assault about as often as women do. I am not certain that the study addresses whether men and women are equally honest and self-reflective in answering that question.
"What if the boy in that article had filed charges against her for leading him on and then leaving in the middle? "
You do realize that it is perfectly acceptable to change one’s mind at anytime and not against any law, correct??
Reading this thread, I need to keep reminding myself we are actually in 2019. :grimace:
Except that’s not what happened @doschicos. According to the “victim’s” own writing, she didn’t object at the time and didn’t "realize she had been “sexually assaulted” until afterwards.
Reading this thread, I need to keep reminding myself we are not at the Salem witch trials.
@doschicos You may want to read The Atlantic article. But i do believe the false accusations are at about 6%, according to polls and statistics on line. I think this is going to be as good as we can get, its not perfect, and there will be mistakes. The U Mass case seems pretty off, the student accused was international or an immigrant, and did not get good legal help, it seems, and its a sad case. Everyone gets representation in the USA , even the Boston Bombers, so I think boys in colleges do have a right to legal representation in their cases. Whats odd about these college rape and assault cases, is they seem to go AROUND the US and State laws to basically be sure any possible “rapist” is off campus and expelled. Universities do the same thing with suicidal students, get them off campus quickly.
Here is another false accusation story in Connecticut. This young woman went to jail for lying, given
what the two men went through, including expulsion.
https://www.ctpost.com/local/article/Acquitted-man-sues-complainant-university-13733205.php
It is pretty dangerous to have sex with strangers, outdoors, in a group setting, or with anyone you don’t know very very well.
@roycroftmom --I agree with you. That is why I also stated “Sure, absolutely, we can and should encourage our students to engage in smart behavior and avoid high-risk situations.” I am in no way perpetuating the belief that young adults can do whatever they want with no consequences. Believe me, that is not how I am raising my child. She also looks both ways before she crosses the street, even in a pedestrian walkway…and so do I.
There is a difference between encouraging smart choices, though, and acting like if young adults just obey the “rules”–dress conservatively, never consume alcoholic beverages, etc–then they are almost guaranteed not to get raped. That is the point I am trying to make.
I suspect we agree more than we disagree on this.
Here is the most publicized false accusation case, at Duke. It went so far as Duke professors assuming the boys were guilty and signing letters for their expulsion. The victim lied and eventually this came to light. Because the victim was African American and the Duke students were white, it was a super charged case.
I believe the much more recent, and perhaps clear cut, case at Stanford, the victim’s race was suppressed because of this case.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/duke-lacrosse-rape-espn-30-for-30_n_56e07e33e4b065e2e3d486f7
@hebegebe I’m responding to the statement I quoted as written. To me, that is a dangerous and misguided statement to proclaim, regardless of specifics of any case, the whole ‘leading him on’ bit. One can discuss the specifics of cases and whether they agree with them or not, but my point is that what that comment I quoted says is not illegal by any means and sends the wrong message.
Because? I can’t understand the reasoning here. Rapists aren’t treating women like prostitutes: prostitutes get paid. Rapists are treating women like sex dolls.
This is both right and wrong. The majority of abusing Catholic priests abused women, maybe, but the majority of victims were male, because the priests who abused boys typically abused a lot of boys.
The post that @JHS was responding to concerned whether victims’ clothing was relevant to their abuse. Priests don’t abuse little boys because the boys are dressed like prostitutes. I don’t think that’s a controversial statement.
What would the charge be? Feloniously deciding you don’t want to have sex any more?
If that’s a crime, an awful lot of guys who have orgasms and quit before their partner has one are criminals.
By itself, that one sentence is dangerous and misguided. But in the context of both the article and in vpa’s message, it was clear that vpa was not condoning mistreatment of women, but rather discussing the double standard that applied in this case.
There is an interesting case in Cincinnati from last year. The male participant went to the title IX office alleging assault because he was too drunk to consent. The school found in his favor and suspended the female student. She is now suing the school because she was just as drunk as he was so she couldn’t consent either. The question is asked if no one is sober can they essentially be raping each other where they are both guilty and victims at the same time? This brings up another point many are discussing … Is the walk of shame from years ago becoming the race to the title IX office where the first person to report drunken sex “wins”?